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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: Cocoon, Turbine, duplication of efforts
Date Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:08:17 GMT
> "Diethelm Guallar, Gonzalo" wrote:
> > > Another innocent question (believe me, I'm not trying
> > > to start a flame war or anything like that).
> >
> > No problem.
> Stefano, thanks for your answers.

You're welcome.
> > > In this sense, could Cocoon (or parts of it) be implemented
> > > on top of Turbine? Or maybe could Turbine (or parts of
> > > it) be implemented on top of Cocoon? Maybe the pool
> > > should be moved to Avalon, and have Turbine use it
> > > from there? Maybe I'm just crazy?
> >
> > No, you're not.
> >
> > In a perfect world, you would have all projects based on the
> component
> > model created by Avalon and working together smoothly without
> > having one project to be placed on top of parts of another.
> Ok, so Avalon is where you would put all the generic stuff that
> could be reusable again and again in time, right? Sort of "The
> Apache libjava" (with apologies to glibc...)?

No. Avalon won't include the libraries, it will indicate what interfaces
the libraries should implement to be "connectable" between one another.

More or less like lego bricks: each project componentize its work in
blocks and avalon brings them together. If a block can be reused between
projects, it will be refactored and released separately.

But how this is done is yet to be defined.

> > Anyway, don't worry: we are fully aware of this :)
> I suspected as much, judging from the extremely high quality
> of the projects I have seen in the Java/XML Apache groups.

Thank you.
> Now, regarding the list of projects in Java/XML Apache, a
> few comments on your comments, if I may. Let me explain before
> that I have to build a bunch of web applications that will finally
> interact with legacy back-end systems, and have spent a few
> weeks perusing several alternatives for this job.
> > > Turbine  -> servlet (standalone)
> Besides being a servlet, it seems to define a standard way (sort
> of a "philosophy") for writing web apps, right?

Oh, yes, it's a framework, by itself doesn't mean anything (more or less
like Cocoon).

> How well does this integrate (if at all) with Cocoon?

Unfortunately, it does not integrate and we have yet to discover a way
(if any) to do this. The projects are very different in both strategy
and design.

> > > Struts   -> servlet library (standalone)
> In this context, what is the difference between a "servlet" and
> a "servlet library"? Hhhhmmmm... From what I have seen of Turbine,
> it DOES seem to be the case that a SINGLE servlet (Turbine)
> drives a whole application built around it. Could this be it?
> How about Struts? Is the MVC model proposed in this project a
> good paradigm? Can it be integrated with Cocoon? (As you can
> see, my mind is pretty much set on Cocoon; I'm just trying to
> figure out if I need anything else BESIDES Cocoon... 8-).

Struts is a way to help JSP users understand how to apply MVC. Cocoon
goes _way_ beyond MVC and directly into MDSC (multi-dimensional
separation of concerns).
> > > Xang     -> servlet (standalone)
> I have been unable to find much information regarding Xang; this
> one does seem like a dead project (no offense intended to anybody).

I myself don't know exactly what it is :/
> > > Jetspeed -> based on *both* Turbine and Cocoon
> Ok, here I have my doubts: it seems to me that Jetspeed uses
> Cocoon as an API, something explicitly "forbidden" in the Cocoon
> guidelines. Is this correct?

Yes. Kevin Burton is fully aware of this and when Cocoon2 is ready the
jetspeed project will fix this design flaw.
> > > Cocoon   -> servlet and command line (based on Xerces,
> > >             Xalan, Fop, Turbine-pool)
> Ok, here is the (to me) X million dollars question: if I were
> to build an application that:
> * is web based
> * has certain traits of a portal site (a la eurofootball)
> * uses XML to provide content, and XSL to present it
> and had to choose between all of the frameworks available
> (turbine, struts, xang [is this one even an alternative?],
> jetspeed, cocoon), which one should I use? Or, to put it
> more bluntly, which one would you, Stefano, use? 8-)

It depends.

Jetspeed is cool but I don't like its current design.

Turbine and Struts are for XML web applications: they focus more on
highly dynamic content and application logic (something Cocoon has yet
to focus on)

Xang is dead.
> > > JBoss (not an ASF project)
> > > Enhydra (not an ASF project)
> > > FreeMarker (not an ASF project)
> > > Village (not an ASF project)
> > > OpenEJB (not an ASF project)
> Ok.
> > I'll try to give you a better picture:
> Despite Avalon being above everything else in your picture,
> I take it to be the other way around... 8-)

yes, well, I write from top to bottom :)
> >              Avalon <- Xerces
> >                |
> >                v
> >          James, Tomcat
> >                |
> >                v
> >  Xerces, Xalan, FOP, Turbine, Cocoon
> >                |
> >                v
> >          JetSpeed, Jyve
> Thanks for your input, and for all your great work.

Thank you for your interest.
> > Stefano Mazzocchi
> Dolce e fer niente... [sorry for the (mis)spelling]
> --
> Gonzalo A. Diethelm
> If this mail is in HTML format, blame Exchange Server: Q222508

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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