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From "Diethelm Guallar, Gonzalo" <>
Subject RE: Cocoon, Turbine, duplication of efforts
Date Fri, 21 Jul 2000 22:42:23 GMT
> > Another innocent question (believe me, I'm not trying
> > to start a flame war or anything like that).
> No problem.

Stefano, thanks for your answers.

> > In this sense, could Cocoon (or parts of it) be implemented
> > on top of Turbine? Or maybe could Turbine (or parts of
> > it) be implemented on top of Cocoon? Maybe the pool
> > should be moved to Avalon, and have Turbine use it
> > from there? Maybe I'm just crazy?
> No, you're not.
> In a perfect world, you would have all projects based on the component
> model created by Avalon and working together smoothly without 
> having one project to be placed on top of parts of another.

Ok, so Avalon is where you would put all the generic stuff that
could be reusable again and again in time, right? Sort of "The
Apache libjava" (with apologies to glibc...)?

> Anyway, don't worry: we are fully aware of this :)

I suspected as much, judging from the extremely high quality
of the projects I have seen in the Java/XML Apache groups.

Now, regarding the list of projects in Java/XML Apache, a
few comments on your comments, if I may. Let me explain before
that I have to build a bunch of web applications that will finally
interact with legacy back-end systems, and have spent a few
weeks perusing several alternatives for this job.

> > Turbine  -> servlet (standalone)

Besides being a servlet, it seems to define a standard way (sort
of a "philosophy") for writing web apps, right? How well does
this integrate (if at all) with Cocoon?

> > Struts   -> servlet library (standalone)

In this context, what is the difference between a "servlet" and
a "servlet library"? Hhhhmmmm... From what I have seen of Turbine,
it DOES seem to be the case that a SINGLE servlet (Turbine)
drives a whole application built around it. Could this be it?
How about Struts? Is the MVC model proposed in this project a
good paradigm? Can it be integrated with Cocoon? (As you can
see, my mind is pretty much set on Cocoon; I'm just trying to
figure out if I need anything else BESIDES Cocoon... 8-).

> > Xang     -> servlet (standalone)

I have been unable to find much information regarding Xang; this
one does seem like a dead project (no offense intended to anybody).

> > Jetspeed -> based on *both* Turbine and Cocoon

Ok, here I have my doubts: it seems to me that Jetspeed uses
Cocoon as an API, something explicitly "forbidden" in the Cocoon
guidelines. Is this correct?

> > Cocoon   -> servlet and command line (based on Xerces,
> >             Xalan, Fop, Turbine-pool)

Ok, here is the (to me) X million dollars question: if I were
to build an application that:

* is web based
* has certain traits of a portal site (a la eurofootball)
* uses XML to provide content, and XSL to present it

and had to choose between all of the frameworks available
(turbine, struts, xang [is this one even an alternative?],
jetspeed, cocoon), which one should I use? Or, to put it
more bluntly, which one would you, Stefano, use? 8-)

> > JBoss (not an ASF project)
> > Enhydra (not an ASF project)
> > FreeMarker (not an ASF project)
> > Village (not an ASF project)
> > OpenEJB (not an ASF project)


> I'll try to give you a better picture:

Despite Avalon being above everything else in your picture,
I take it to be the other way around... 8-)

>              Avalon <- Xerces
>                |
>                v
>          James, Tomcat
>                |
>                v
>  Xerces, Xalan, FOP, Turbine, Cocoon 
>                |
>                v
>          JetSpeed, Jyve

Thanks for your input, and for all your great work.

> Stefano Mazzocchi

Dolce e fer niente... [sorry for the (mis)spelling]

Gonzalo A. Diethelm
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