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From "Todd Gunsolley" <t...@gunsolley.net>
Subject RE: HTML and XSL
Date Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:06:42 GMT


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Isidoro Martinez [mailto:isidoro.martinez@expandedmedia.be]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 6:42 AM
> To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: HTML and XSL
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Well, I see that the relation between XSL and HTML is 
> something that worries.
> That's good!!
> 
> I hope I don't bore you if I start to 'philosophize'.
> 
> I know XML is very powerful but I wanto to use it in a 
> concret, the most
> common, situation.
> 
> We want to develop Web applications where some of the 
> contents will be dynamic.
> 
> To do it, we have programmers, who are very good in 
> algorithms... but with an
> aesthetic sense not too developed. :-)
> and we have designers who with their visual tools can build 
> really nice static
> pages... but don't ask them too much!!.
> 
> So, the process is divide in programmers and designers and we 
> would like to
> maintain them separated.
> 
> If we are going to develop an application (suppose we use 
> Java), the thing will
> go more or less as follows:
> - The programmers start to develop their Java classes where 
> is contained the
> core of the application and the business logic.
> - The designers build their static HTML pages.
> - In a certain momento in time, we have to add the dynamic 
> behaviour to the
> HTML pages.
> - In the best of the cases, I have to perform minor changes 
> in my HTML pags to
> transform them
>   into JSP (adding some while, if, getValue functions,...)
>   But the problem is that we have mixed the two things. So, 
> if in the future we
> are going to change the layout,
>   we have to modify the JSP page.
>   Who is going to do it?
>   If the designer does it, he has to know some programming 
> stuff. Well, in fact
> he can use some visual tool that handle
>   pretty well the JSP sections.
> 
> So, I hear something about XML, XSL, XSLT,... and I start to 
> investigate.
> The point is that, I think, it doesn't solve THIS problem.
> Now the programmer put the data in a XML file. Who is going 
> to build the XSL
> file? You can say that a designer can do it,

I'm counting on this phenomenon to develop the need for a new class of designers, those who
are really good with xsl transformations and formatting objects.  Remember way back when the
web was young and all virtually all html was written with simple text editors??  While xsl
really is simple enough to learn and manipulate, I'm certain that visual tools will not be
far off.  But you must remember the true benefit of all these xs's is extensibility.  That's
an exponentially greater benefit compared to the trouble of learning xsl than html, cgi-bin,
and css together.

> that an HTML file can be 'imported' and some minor changes 
> can be done. Well,
> that is exactly the same that with the JSP !!.
> 
>  I don't say anything against all this new stuff, but I don't 
> see how it can
> really help in THIS problem. Even further, I see
>  that it complicates all the process.
> 

You're right, it doesn't really provide an easily implemented fix to this particular problem
right now.  But if you bite the bullet and learn it now, the next round of changes to your
site (whether data-driven or design-driven) will happen with substantially less effort and
(likely) more quickly than the current (HTML JSP) solution. 

>  The solution? I don't know, maybe a visual tool that the 
> designers can use to
> build the XSL.
> 
> Thaks for your patience!!
> 
> Isi,
> 
> 
> Nägeli Margrit wrote:
> 
> > Good question! I dread the moment when I have to tell our 
> web designer that
> > he will now have to style his pages in XSL instead of Dreamweaver.
> >
> > Maybe this should be a faq: "How do I tell my designer ...?" ;)
> >
> > maggie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Isidoro Martinez [mailto:isidoro.martinez@expandedmedia.be]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 8:55 AM
> > To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org
> > Subject: HTML and XSL
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am new in this thing of Cocoon, event though I have some 
> experience
> > with servlets, JSP,...
> > Maybe this is not the best place to make my questions, but I would
> > reallyb apreciate any help :-)
> >
> > Ok, I can write my XSP and produce pretty XM files with all 
> my data. In
> > the other hand, I
> > have a lot of fancy HTML editors that allow me to create 
> nice layouts.
> > So, I would need to
> > define a XSL to transform my XML in my final HTML file. The 
> question is:
> > if I can produce
> > easily the HTML, how can I obtain the XSL file? I guess 
> somebody will
> > tell me that I should
> > start working with the XSL file and forget the HTML file. 
> In this case,
> > do they exist visual tools
> > to make those design as in HTML?
> >
> > Thanks a lot,
> >
> > Isi,
> >
> > 
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> >
> > 
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> 
> --
> Isidoro Legido Martínez
> eXpanded Media
> Software Analyst / Developer
> Parijsstraat 74, B-3000 Leuven - Louvain
> Tel: +32 (16) 31.10.12
> Fax: +32 (16) 31.10.19
> E-mail: isidoro.martinez@expandedmedia.be
> URL: http://www.expandedmedia.be
> 
> 
> 
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