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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:04:28 -0600
From: montefin <montefin@finux.com>
Organization: montefin[tm] Enterprises
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To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: Cocoon Competitors... Wanted
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 <39512E11.36DEE893@finux.com> <395151FD.4CA55277@apache.org>
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Stefano,

I agree with you almost totally.

Yes, not only does Matt Sergeant credit Cocoon with what I'd have to
term 'inspirations' in AxKit, he also points out features of Cocoon2
that AxKit does provide, and those which only Cocoon2 will have.

It's also great to see compliments flying back and forth. Bravo!

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> In fact, AxKit is using ideas and design patterns from this project and
> allows Perl people to have a taste of them. And giving back full credits
> to us.
> 
> I consider this a very good thing to do since Cocoon cannot possibly
> cover all possible cases and Perl makes perfect sense for some cases.
>
> I don't know of Zope's support for XML but I like their project, they
> are a serious group of developers and I've been told their software
> rocks. This is very good for them.
>

Zope, btw, is way cool. I began with Zope shortly after I began with
Cocoon, about mid-1999 as my logs show. And I have got to say, I doubt
if I would have clocked so much 'flight time' on Cocoon if it hadn't
promised so much; and so little 'flight time' on Zope if it hadn't been
such a slam dunk. But I seriously doubt if I'll become anybody's
developer.
 

montefin wrote:
> >
> > I have more 'flight time' with Cocoon than the others. But I think
> > that's partly a consequence of the time it takes to get Cocoon cooking.
>

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> Ever considered how much intentionality there is in this ;-)
>

Stefano, how Machiavellian!

Still, it helped that I was doing a lot of Java as opposed to Python at
the time. I mean, who _does_ Python anyway? Maybe they _have_ to make it
easy.

And Perl? Well Perl is Perl -- the Swiss Army Chainsaw of Unix. You
either love it or refuse to admit it exists.


montefin wrote:
>
> > Zope's documentation makes it a breeze to setup, so I haven't had to
> > 'do' much with or for it.
>


Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> Yep, it's harder to create a community out of perfect software... and a
> community is what drives a project in the long run...
>

Stefano, there is where you and I disagree. Without a doubt in my mind,
I have got to believe that logically, in the long run, a "community of
_users_" is what drives a project. That's right, _low_down_rotten_users
like me. And you know what? That's the beauty part.

Stefano, if you would just say "It should be easy to install Coccon."
Guess what? Cocoon would become almost overnight a dream to install and
run. You have that much influence. And for that very reason, even more
developers would flock to Cocoon.

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I'm not saying it should not be easy to install a software... but
> sometimes it doesn't hurt to take it easy and let people get their hands
> dirty with code... for sure, helps creating possible developers..
>

BTW, Stefano, like many innovators, sometimes people put words in your
mouth. Once, another list member sloughed off some help I requested in
getting Cocoon-1.6.1 setup when I mentioned I had another version of
Cocoon working already under Exeter. He told me that you had said that
more than one instance of Cocoon on a system was more or less not
doable. Well, I currently have 3 instances of Cocoon running on this Red
Hat 6.1 box: (Coccon-1.3.1 under Exeter, Cocoon-1.6.1 under ApacheJServ,
and Cocoon-1.7.4 under Tomcat) all working just fine and staying out of
each other's way, and all thanks to you and your team of wizards.

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> (don't freak out, people, Cocoon2 will have better docs, I promise)
>

Me freak out? Never happen. I'm Italian :)

Regards,

montefin