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From Paul Russell <p...@luminas.co.uk>
Subject Re: Another showstopper in Xalan. No workaround seems possible.
Date Thu, 25 May 2000 23:05:36 GMT
Paul,

*Again* I find myself attempting to explain the open source
software model to you. This is the last time I attempt to
do so.

On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 05:47:29PM -0400, Paul Derbyshire wrote:
> What Xalan mailing list? I searched your Web site up and down, and there's
> no xalan-users list to be seen. Moreover, if I email
> xalan-users-subscribe@xml.apache.org (or xalan-users-request) I get "user
> unknown". The only Xalan mailing list I can find any hint of is the one for
> developers, which I'm not.

You are talking to the developers of Cocoon. Cocoon has nothing to
do with Xalan whatsoever. We use a pluggable translation engine, and
currenltly the best such engine we've found is Xalan. If you'd like
to use a different one, write the wrapper classes (a trivial job)
and go right ahead.

> >Cocoon and Xalan are *OPEN SOURCE*. You did not pay for them, you
> >decided to use them. They came with no guaruntees that they would
> >solve your problems.
> 
> They came with strong statements to the effect that they supported the
> *full* XML/XSLT standards,
> and this inability to inline documents in other documents when I've heard
> repeatedly this is a capability of XML, strongly implies that these strong
> statements were wrong.

I refer you to version 1.1 of the Apache Software Licence.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES,
INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND
FITNESS  FOR A PARTICULAR  PURPOSE ARE  DISCLAIMED.  IN NO  EVENT SHALL  THE
APACHE SOFTWARE  FOUNDATION  OR ITS CONTRIBUTORS  BE LIABLE FOR  ANY DIRECT,
INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL  DAMAGES (INCLU-
DING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT  OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS
OF USE, DATA, OR  PROFITS; OR BUSINESS  INTERRUPTION)  HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON
ANY  THEORY OF LIABILITY,  WHETHER  IN CONTRACT,  STRICT LIABILITY,  OR TORT
(INCLUDING  NEGLIGENCE OR  OTHERWISE) ARISING IN  ANY WAY OUT OF THE  USE OF
THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

We *CANNOT* support cocoon without fail, if you have a problem with the
support you've recieved, there is a simple solution: go elsewhere.
There are hundreds and hundreds of people on this mailing list, none
of which have been so offensive in their requests for help as yourself.

We do our best. Personally, I'm currently spending three to five
hours a day both writing code, and helping the users of Cocoon.
We all have a day job. In my case, I'm the technical director of
an incredibly forward thinking internet application development
company. This is an incredibly demanding job, I simply do not have
time to track down bugs in software which I have little or no
knowladge of.

Xalan is developed by an incredibly bright bunch of people. If there
is a bug in their software, they will try their best to fix it
as soon as humanly possible. However, the Cocoon developers *cannot*
fix Xalan. We don't have access to their CVS repository and
consequently cannot fix any supposed bugs in their codebase.

> > 1) There's a 'bug' in Xalan. If that's the case, report it to
> >    the relavent people, and they'll fix it as soon as possible.
> And how do I do that? Nobody has deigned to provide a xalan-users list to
> get feedback from end-users of Xalan. Then again, I get the distinct
> impression that open source developers rarely think about end-users, and
> think only of the development team, nine times out of ten, with the
> apparent exception of the Cocoon development team.

Talk to xalan-dev. How *dare* you suggest that open source developers
don't think about their users? I *am* a user. All open source teams
are the same. You think the Xalan team would be expending countless
man days a week (if they're anything like us lot, problably about 10
-30) if they weren't going to *use* the software? Why would they bother?
They don't get paid to develop the software. They develop it because
there's a need within their own organisation, or mind for such a
piece of software.

> >In any case, coming onto the *Cocoon* users list and declaring
> >Cocoon and Xalan the 'doom' of your project...
> I didn't make any such declaration. I lamented that I'm now unsure
> *whether* it is the salvation or the doom of my project. Obviously you
> didn't even read my post completely and clearly before deciding to launch
> all missiles. Hothead.

I may indeed be a hothead, sir, but you are slagging off one of the
best teams of developers I've ever had the pleasure of working with.
If you don't like the development team here at Cocoon Towers, go
elsewhere. If you find a better one, I'll be impressed. Very
impressed.

> >...help us fix them. We are not gods...
> I can't hire anyone, on this budget.

With the upmost respect, that is your problem, not mine.

> >What *is* the WOL? Some of us here are software engineers by trade.
> >If you tell us exactly what you're trying to achieve, we *might*
> >be able to suggest a decent work around or even a new way of
> >thinking about the whole problem.
> 
> [...explanation of technology...]

I understand what you're trying to do in terms of technology;
what I'm asking as a systems engineer, is what are you trying
to *achieve*. What market are you trying to fill, and how?
Why is including one document within another (a relatively
unusual request, with respect) so important to the project
as a whole.

This is my *last* post on this matter until such time as I feel
I can actually *SOLVE* your problems. I strongly urge you to
think very very carefully about your next post, and make sure
you're asking the questions that are going to inspire those in
the know to help you. If you have a problem with Xalan, then
either subscribe to the (new) Xalan-users list, or the Xalan-dev
list, and report them there.

Good day.


-- 
Paul Russell                               <paul@luminas.co.uk>
Technical Director,                   http://www.luminas.co.uk
Luminas Ltd.

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