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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: New Cocoon distribution
Date Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:35:33 GMT
Daniel Schneider wrote:
> 
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >
> > People,
> >
> > since I'm not blind and I'd love more and more people to use Cocoon, I
> > decided to make installation, distribution and development simpler. I'm
> > not done, but here is what I'd like to do at the end.
> >
> > 1) Cocoon will contain all the basic required packages. This means
> > Xerces, Xalan, Fop and Ant.
> Nice, this has been one of the major newbie problems in the past.
> See my own struggles: http://tecfa.unige.ch/guides/xml/cocoon/install-notes-16.html

Oh god, these are a goldmine for me.... I'll try to patch all these
struggles :)

(the hard part is to come up with a good bug report: fixes are the
trivial part)
 
> > 2) The distribution will be done as a .zip file and .tar.gz file, the
> > first created on win32, the second created on Unix (with all the right
> > newlines in place)
> perfect :)

:) Perfect if some UNIX guy helps me in creating the other distribution
:)
 
> I am not sure about the other priorities you mentionned (installer for
> example, short but correct installation instructions should do IMHO right now)

The priorities are "all before 1.7 is out". No release unless all are
met.
 
> 2 notes: It might be useful to plead with Tomcat folks to update their documentation.
> Never managed to get Apache/Tomcat/Cocoon behave correctly. Else just tell
> Apache users to install Jserv and forget about Tomcat. Also, somewhere you
> need to mention (IMHO) that LDAP does not work without additional
> vendor specific packages (jndi alone does not do the trick). Same is true
> for a jdbc driver. Maybe have 2 different examples (including server config files)
> for each would do the trick.

Man, I'd scream for help on these areas :/ Wanna help?
 
> What's most important IMHO at this stage of Coocoon is better and bigger examples
> for simpler XML users, e.g better explanation on how to use Cocoon as a system by
> showing off some scenarios:
> 
> Here are 2 examples:
> (1) I really could not figure out how you suggest to combine a single XML file
> with different XSLT stylesheets in order to show different contents.
> (IMHO that's one of the major points about XSLT besides translation
> into HTML). I did do it with LotusXSL alone, I could do it with Xalan
> I can do it by including the xml data file into a small file like:
> 
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
> <?xml-stylesheet href="results.xsl" type="text/xsl"?>
> <?cocoon-process type="xslt"?>
> <!DOCTYPE include [
>  <!ENTITY xmlFile SYSTEM "proj11.xml">
> ]>
> <include>
> &xmlFile;
> </include>
> 
> .. is THAT the way to do it ?? ... the only example I found says so.

I don't get it.
 
> (2) How is one supposed to assemble things into a single document. Sorry this
> is vague, but it's one of the major XML propaganda lines :)

I don't know where you got this.

> How would you exactly suggest producing an annual report of a University departement
?
> What I want is a document (in both printable and HTML and (future) client-side XML)
> that grabs some information from some static XML files (e.g. all
> the abstracts of some research papers), extracts bibliographic
> information from a SQL database, person information from LDAP,
> and finally mixes in some text fragements.
> Is the solution XSP ? For each subproblem I don't need XSP... stuck again
> with an "include and combine" problem.

XInclude is _actually_ a proposed Note at W3C, it's not even a working
draft. XSchema decided (smartly) not to deal with inclusion and all that
stuff (unlike DTDs). XInfoset should provide a way to separate your
content in different files, but ASAIK, nobody is supporting it (and it's
not even standard yet).

Anyway, the use of external entities is the only standard way of
including external data in your document. This data could be a static
file or a dynamic XML page served by Cocoon.

Anyway, there is yet to be reccomended a good way of doing XML inclusion
and inheritance (see my proposal on general@xml.apache.org a few months
ago)

> (3) Finally, I'd like to let people have XML files all over a large Web Server.
> Now, I sort of think that Cocoon is the future, but I feel unsafe about
> the cocoon-process instructions. I'd rather leave JUST the contents
> in data/text XML files and use rather small *.cxml (or whatever extension)
> files with processing instructions, XSP etc., include XML data files
> and that are dispatched to Cocoon.
> So, static XML would just have Contents and Cocoon would not be allowed to process
> these (except if there were a solution to display naked XML by some default,
> e.g. like a tree). Using configuration files in Tomcat's WEB-INF to separate
> data and processing instructions is IMHO a bad idea. Too difficult for simple users.

In the Cocoon2 document and in the FAQ I explained very precisely where
Cocoon is going and why.
 
> I know that these questions has be raised before, but as an unsecure
> newbie I'd like to hear some bolder statements on how to plan
> XML/Cocoon sites, in particular for loose organizations with large and messy > Websistes.

> The idea is to do XML now  and in a way that does not need major reorganization
> work in the future :) :)

Well, until the sitemap is implemented you'd have to live with those
PIs. After that, a bright now future :)

> Cheers and thanx for this really kewl framework !!  - Daniel
> 
> PS: Of course I am also interested in JSP/PHP/XSP issues and I have other
> questions but the 3 above are enough and have been addressed by others
> in various form. Also, I am not good enough to help with documentation
> now, but I'll have tutorials and examples on the Web once I understand.
> So far I only have proof that MySQL/Cocoon 1.6 works and other trivia :)
> e.g. http://tecfa2.unige.ch/guides/xml/cocoon/mysql/
> 
> --
> Dr Daniel K.Schneider, TECFA (Educational Technologies and Learning)
> Faculte de Psychologie et des Sciences de l'Education, University of Geneva,
> email: Daniel.Schneider@tecfa.unige.ch
> www:   http://tecfa.unige.ch/tecfa-people/schneider.html
> MOO:   tecfamoo.unige.ch 7777
> 
> !!!!! NOTE: WE HAVE MOVED, but our fax is still dead !!!
> TECFA - FPSE - Université de Genève
> 40, Bd. du Pont d'Arve, 1205 Genève
> Tel: 41 22 705 9377 - Fax: 41 22 705 9379 - Office#: 6359
> 
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-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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