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From Ralph Goers <>
Subject Re: Servlet service request
Date Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:37:00 GMT
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> Ralph Goers wrote:
>>  I suppose REST is fine for some trivial applications on the web tier, 
> I disagree with this statement. REST is an architectural style and I'm 
> sure, following those principles will help you to build applications 
> from trivial to very complex.
> I also think that the mentioned "without sessions your apps don't 
> scale" argument is bogus. If that was true, HTTP (which is the most 
> prominent implementation of REST) wouldn't scale.
We are way off topic here, but we are obviously talking apples and 
oranges. It isn't possible to build a web application these days without 
using a browser. That pretty much means you are going to use HTTP. 
Whether your application uses sessions or not really has nothing to do 
with that.  In a way that is sort of like saying just because you have 
electrical wiring in your house you are magically going to get light. 
That won't happen unless you plug in a lamp with a light bulb in it - or 
something else that can generate light.  HTTP is the wiring that lets 
you put all kinds of stuff on top of it.  If you want to call that REST 
fine, but to me that isn't very meaningful.
>> but many modern web frameworks (i.e. JSF, Spring Webflow, Wicket) 
>> require that state be maintained on the server simply because they 
>> have a requirement that pages be accessed in specific orders. 
> Using sessions for that purpose is just one way to implement it.
> If you implement a RESTful web tier, your clients (e.g. web browsers) 
> have to become more powerful. In times of mature Ajax frameworks, Flex 
> etc. this isn't as much of a problem like a few years ago.
> It took me a bit longer than Stefano, but in the meantime I also think 
> that web framworks as we know today have already passed their zenith. 
> Next generation web frameworks will make it simple to implement your 
> webapps following REST and I think that Cocoon with its XML pipelines 
> can shine again.
Good luck with that.  I certainly won't get in your way, but I just 
don't believe we'll get there into browsers evolve into something 
"smarter" than what they are today. We went through great pains removing 
a ton of Javascript from our web sites because downloading the libraries 
was cutting response time in half - or even more on dial-up connections.
> Although I wouldn't recommend the usage of sessions, I agree with 
> Ralph and Carsten that we shouldn't forbid the usage of sessions. From 
> our past experiences with our own contracts (e.g. the Cocoon 
> environment abstraction, the FOM) we know that all those attempts 
> haven't been very successfull over the time.
Well, that is the bottom line I suppose.


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