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From "Arje Cahn" <>
Subject RE: [RANT] The Cocoon website: move on, nothing is happening here
Date Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:19:57 GMT

Steven said:

> What those 
> Belgian guys however (in)frequently murmured amongst 
> themselves was: why the stupid fixation with SVN as a 
> required content repository for official ASF documentation 
> sites? 

I can see the benefits of having all content (replicated) in SVN. But in principle, yes, there's
too much 'stupid fixation' going on anyway.

> You 
> should have been there when I decided not to wait for Java 
> hosting @ ASF, simply rented a server, and installed JSPWiki 
> under the domain. 

Well, as you know, I was kind of there. And I think you did Cocoon a really big favour by
doing it in that way. In your stubbornness, you have definitely leveraged the Cocoon community
in many ways.

I don't want JSPWiki back, either, but there are structural errors in the way the Wiki is
organized nowadays.

I would like to see some sort of integration between the Wiki and the 'official' website in
such a way that they have an accelerating effect on each other. There's (almost BY DEFINITION)
too much redundancy and conflicting information in both sites. They've been pulling eachother
down for a long time.

A differentiation between "an official Apache website" and "a community driven website" sounds
so paradoxal to me. The 'community driven websites' have helped Cocoon move forward, the 'official'
one is the one currently killing it.

> While I agree with your sentiments, I can only say that 
> things have grown organically into what they are now. It's 
> what "the community" wanted.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not blaming anyone.

The community has changed a lot over time, and Cocoon has grown mature. With that, it's clear
that some of the original pioneering work is gone, and the focus might better shift to end-users
instead of (Apache) developers that instinctively know their way around in the ASF information

> A few weeks ago, I was talking with Jeff Turner, with him 
> suggesting that it would be better to suggest Daisy instead 
> of Confluence for incubating ASF projects who are looking for 
> a website management tool.

Of course, you would understand that I would not take any position regarding Daisy. :)

But whatever it is we need to get things going again, I'm all for it. 

The Cocoon community has always been really strong, but it's too much centralized on the mailinglists
right now. The outside visibility is therefor completely nonexistant.
Maybe the discussion is (again?) not about what's going wrong with the Cocoon community, but
what's going wrong with what the ASF allows us to do. I don't know about the real bounderies
there, so please tell me.

- Can we have a Wiki integrated with the Cocoon website? 
- As such, can we have both in 1 content repository so we can effectively move interesting
Wiki pages into the documentation?
- Can we display a feed of current activitiy on the mailinglists? Can we display "the 10 latest
messages on the user/dev list" right on the homepage?
- Can we have a forum? (Ok, I guess we can't, but maybe there's a way to display the mailinglists
in a forum-style way? It's just the visibility I'm talking about)
- Can we add blogposts (from committers) to the Cocoon website?
- Are we tied to any ASF rules for structure or design of our website?
- Can we have 'subsites' hosted below the official Cocoon website? Aka, the CocoonGT website?

Just some thoughts..



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