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From "Tim Williams" <>
Subject Re: [RANT] This Maven thing is killing us....
Date Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:20:01 GMT
On 7/2/06, Sylvain Wallez <> wrote:
> Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> > Now, m2 is theoretically a very good tool :)
> Stefano principle: you need good ideas and bad code to grow a community.

I like this Stefano guy more and more every day, as I have a tendency
towards both of these things, with a heavier weighting on the later;)

> The application of this principle in Maven is different than usual, as
> it forces other projects (and not only its own developers) to endure the
> consequences of its bugs.
> And this actually endangers these other projects by forbidding their
> developers from concentrating on actual productive work. Cocoon with all
> its dependencies is certainly an extreme use case for Maven compared to
> all others, and broken builds led some of Cocoon's major contributors to
> not even try 2.2 for months. And now we're wondering if users will even
> be able to build Cocoon if they dare to download it. The project is in
> danger.
> I discussed with several people from other projects at ApacheCon and
> they all report the same kind of problems: non-repeatability of builds.
> It works one day, but not the day after without anything having changed.
> Maven has gained a lot of mindshare because everybody's talking about
> it. Does everybody talk about their Ant build system? No, because it
> just works.

Given Mr. Mazzocchi's principle above, I'll take this opportunity to
introduce a principle from the American South (at least I think that's
where it's from)... anyway...

The "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" Principle.  Ant has just worked
in the past, I wasn't around or probably smart enough to understand
why the move to maven but I can say from a user perspective it "don't
work".  I'm over at forrest and, for learning purposes, like to
maintain a buildable trunk of Cocoon.  That has been impossible since
the move to maven.  I obviously understand that progress happens in
the face of this principle, but there are some cases where it should
be respected.

On a side note, I use the Cocoon code to learn forrest internals and
that task has even been increasingly more difficult since the
directory restructoring, which seems random at best.

As you proceed with this discussion, I hope you'll appreciate that
there are indirect/non-cocooners who are effected by the decisions you
make...  Anyway, just another perspective...

And, thanks too:)

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