Mailing-List: contact dev-help@cocoon.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: dev@cocoon.apache.org
Message-ID: <4391CFFF.5040109@apache.org>
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 18:03:59 +0100
From: Carsten Ziegeler <cziegeler@apache.org>
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: dev@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: [RT][long] Cocoon 3.0: the necessary mutation
References: <43908B84.7070909@apache.org> <439124F7.9090806@apache.org>
 <4391DC13.30000@apache.org>
In-Reply-To: <4391DC13.30000@apache.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> 
> Tools are actually a way to hide complexity.
Yupp.

>  What if the tool you need
> is a plain Java IDE with a JavaScript plugin because all you have is a 
> pipeline API and Flowscript/Javaflow?
> 
Hmm, and why not having a graphical pipeline builder on top? I've
recently seen some vendor products doing exactly that - they are not
using Cocoon underneath, but have a similar product and really nice tools.

> Sorry, but saying that a build tool is the solution to our problems is 
> burying you head in the sand, as it's just trying to automate the 
> management of complexity.
> 
It's not the solution for all of our problems, but it helps in being
productive. First time Cocoon users always ask "Ok, I've downloaded
Cocoon and now what? How do I manage my project?" And then later on "How
do I update my Cocoon version?" And so on. Automatic build management is
imho a must for every project (it enables continuous integration etc.)

> And IMO we don't even need that. As was Gianugo said later, the whole 
> blocks stuff, if you think about it, is just about adding an additional 
> level of complexity in the hope to hide the current one. Just like the 
> sophisticated build tool, actually.
> 
Hehe, good try :) Now, actually, this is one of the points where I
currently disagree. But I'm very happy to be profen wrong. Adding
another level of complexity in the hope to hide the current one, seems a
little bit strange to me whereas we currently don't have a build
solution at all - I mean a solution for building projects that use
Cocoon. But anyways, let's see what the future brings :)

Carsten

-- 
Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG
http://www.s-und-n.de
http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/