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From Carsten Ziegeler <>
Subject Re: [RT] Ditching the environment abstraction
Date Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:12:35 GMT
Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
> Look, Cocoons current messiness depends on a large amount of small 
> things. If we not are able to improve these areas one at a time Cocoon 
> will stay as messy as it is.
Sure, but I really think messiness is a very hard work here. From a
users perspective (= the average Cocoon developer), most of the
"messiness" is hidden. She does not have to deal with how the tree
processor works, or with implementing an own pipeline etc. All these
interfaces and components should be well hidden to her.
So, in these situations, the developer deals with either writing sitemap
components - and then there is the problem I mentioned, that it'S not
obvious *how* to get hold of the request object. I consider *this* the
messiness, but not the request object itself. Or the developer writes
some business logic/flow using own components/flow.

So, imho there are two levels of "messiness" :) Anyways, in the end it
might not play a role - I don't know. Look, in the end, I'm absolutely
in favor of changing parts of Cocoon and make them simpler and easier to
use. But I'm not sure, if this incremental approach is working here.
Which in the end brings us back to the discussion "starting from scratch
vs. incremental changes". Ok, I guess noone wants to get into this atm.
I think, just write an exact proposal, how you want to change the
abstraction and we can then discuss this and vote on that later on. But
I would really suggest that we get much more responses/opinions before
doing this changes. Especially I would like to hear some user opinions
as they are effected by such changes.

> So now we have the situation that we all agree about that there is need 
> for a radical improvement of Cocoon in general. But it seem rather hard 
> get any decisions about changing anything in particular.
Yepp, exactly - there is always someone disagreeing :) In we are in this
state for a very long time now. Don't know how to change this though.

> Maybe Cocoon of today is what we deserve ;)


Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG

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