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From Guido Casper <>
Subject Re: [RT][long] Cocoon 3.0: the necessary mutation
Date Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:33:43 GMT
The subject line and Gianugo's comment caused me to interrupt my silence :-)

Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> Starting from our mistakes, today I tend to say that one of the areas
> where we have completely failed is the idea of not-so-technical people
> managing the applications:

I agree and I think it's an important point to emphasize. I still 
remember the term "pyramid of contracts" (PoC). And I'm still a believer.

It may be that it needs some modification from its original definition. 
But I'm wholeheartedly convinced that "the world" needs  such a thing 
more than ever before.

AFAIK RoR was a byproduct from building an application from scratch 
(although I'm not entirely sure wether that really is an indication of 
the above statement).

Cocoon today to me is a tool for deveopers by developers. It is a 
brilliant webframework with a lot of leading innovations. But if its 
major goal is exactly that: being the most productive webframework (I 
know - it is a lot of other things - XML processing framework, etc.) 
than that's a goal A LOT OF other projects are trying to achieve as 
well. So there is always a certain chance that we are being 
"out-innovated". I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It is one of the 
things that drives us. I'm just stating a fact to make my point clear.

But we should be aware that a consequence of it is, that we will always 
try to compete with all these other projects.

What is our strength? What is Cocoon's real potential? What is our 
elevator pitch (sorry for that one :-)?

I think a major cause for our failing to deliver the PoC is Cocoon's low 
adoption. If Cocoon's adoption were like Struts I'm sure there would be 
more users expressing the need for it (if provided with such options 
that is, but I may be wrong of course).

But aren't the recent screams for simplicity, fun/sexy and productivity 
exactly that? Shoudn't we just put this screams into perspective? 
Different skill levels have different perception of what is simple or 
fun/sexy or even productive.

All I'm asking for is to consider what we want Cocoon 3.0's major goals 
to be. If it's to be the best tool for talented developers building 
webapplications that's perfectly fine. That's just where Cocoon has been 
driven by evolution and the most committed people (and that may be a 
sign the PoC is not really needed/useful). A common coherent vision may 
be elusive, but I thought it doesn't harm to explicitely state possible 
future directions. I think the other goals: simplicity, fun/sexy, 
productivity may be easier to unite.

Although I have the slight feeling that such a discussion may be doomed 
to lead to nowhere I thought the subject of Cocoon 3.0 would justify it. 
I hope you agree and bare with me :-)


Freundliche Grüße / With kind regards
Guido Casper

Competence Center Open Source
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