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From Carsten Ziegeler <>
Subject Re: [RT][long] Cocoon 3.0: the necessary mutation
Date Sat, 03 Dec 2005 06:08:55 GMT
Ralph Goers wrote:
> Now while I agree with a lot of what you are saying I'm not really sure 
> it completely addresses all the issues. For example, while allowing 
> folks to use any container they want might be a good thing it can also 
> make it more difficult if that just becomes one more thing they have to 
> learn about.  Frankly, I'd just say to heck with it and use Spring.  At 
> this point I don't think we have to worry about radical changes or the 
> community dying.  Of course, it then makes more sense to leverage Spring 
> WebFlow as I have in mind.  And since Spring is such a popular framework 
> it makes it much more palatable for manager types - especially those who 
> think EJBs suck and Spring/Hibernate is the answer.
Exactly (it must be that being in the same state produces the same
thoughts at the same time, scary...)

> By the way - I'm not interested in Cocoon being sexy.
Amen - there are many examples of "sexy but useless in the real world"
our there...

> I'm interested in
> seeing its adoption rate increase, which is a very different thing.
> As to your sitemap changes, I think what you have in mind is right on.  
> It wouldn't bother me if in 3.0 we have only javaflow and flowscript for 
> those who want to "roll their own" and webflow for those who prefer a 
> stateful flow.
> As for your comments on Ajax, I don't know if you read it but you should 
> take a look at this entry from Carsten's blog 
Now, Ajax *is* a cool and exiting technology. The interesting part is
that users have been told in the past years that "javascript is evil"
(it doesn't really matter that javascript by itself is not evil, but the
implementations make it a nice tool for the dark side) and now out of a
sudden, "javascript is wonderful" and "you can't use my site without
javascript". This is a really interesting social aspect.
Although Ajax is interesting, it comes with several problems. Developing
web applications gets much harder, testing gets more complicated and the
load on your severs changes dramatically - if you take all of this
together, it will be interesting to see, if ajax will be the future or
not. Perhaps it is, perhaps it will be replaced by something different,
who knows. So what does this mean to us? Well, let's not focus too much
on this Ajax stuff, let's solve our real problems (and if we can add
some ajax support on the way, great).

Ah, and there is another thing: stable blocks. It is a nightmare, if
popular blocks heavily change between maintenance versions. There are
several projects out there, that skipped Cocoon - after using it for
some time - because they were totally fed up with adopting their code to
the newest Cocoon version. So a separate versioniong for blocks with
stable apis is a must. (I know, we already discussed this, but I think
this is the right place to just repeat it).


Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG

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