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From Berin Loritsch <>
Subject Re: [RT][long] Cocoon 3.0: the necessary mutation
Date Sun, 04 Dec 2005 20:17:27 GMT
On Sunday December 04, 2005 2:49 pm, Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> On 03.12.2005 05:58, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > Why is Ruby on Rails fun to work with?  It is because
> > things make sense.  You only need to learn Ruby to be able to create a
> > useful website.  You don't need to learn Sitemap Markup Language, JEXL,
> > CForms configuration language, Hibernate mapping language, Javascript,
> > XML Stylesheet Language, and core configuration language.
> But don't we agree that RoR works just up to a certain complexity? And
> that targeted Cocoon applications are beyond this complexity? So
> comparing concepts or what to learn to effectively use a technology is a
> bit unfair, isn't it?

No, I think that's a cop out.  RoR has something that Cocoon *needs*: 
simplicity.  Web sites don't need to be overly complex.  In fact, most 
"complex" web sites only need a _little_ bit more than what RoR affords you.

My point is this: Cocoon does not need to be nearly as complex as it is.  If 
you never stop to see what you can learn from another web framework, you will  
always assume that "my needs are just too complex".  It just ain't so.

Tell me, why is it so much easier to integrate a web service or two right into 
your RoR app compared to a Cocoon app?  Ok, maybe that was unfair.  How about 
automatically generated emails?  Oh, again probably a little unfair.

What Cocoon has that is still difficult in RoR is the ability to generate 
PDFs.  Much of the complexity in Cocoon today is _self_inflicted_.  Cocoon is 
just not fun to work with.  What's wrong with adding a little fun back into 
using Cocoon?

Can you give me an example of a web application that you think would be too 
complex for rails but just right for Cocoon?

Now, let's go the other way.  Create a blog in Cocoon, and compare it with one 
written in rails.  How much cruft and unnecessary work in each one?  Bang for 
buck rails kills Cocoon.  It doesn't need to be that way.

Bottom line: so what if Cocoon is marketed for stuff more complex than rails?  
That's still not an excuse for the complexity we put ourselves through.  I 
want my work to be fun--or at the very least efficient.  You can't be 
efficient if you have to learn several languages just to get going.  Esp. 
since you can't expect to be an expert in any one of them.

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