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From "Romano Trampus" <tram...@univ.trieste.it>
Subject RE: [RT] The next shiny thing?
Date Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:05:54 GMT

Sorry, I read "spots" of this list and  somebody could have written the
same:

I think the cocoon package is too big. I would prefer a core and a lot of
plugins, not in the same distribution. I think the cocoon package is great
but confusing. With plugins you have not to care that anything must have the
same maturity level. And if I need a plugin I have only to download that,
just as I do that with eclipse.

bye

romano


-----Original Message-----
From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:bloritsch@d-haven.org] 
Sent: martedì 6 dicembre 2005 14.44
To: dev@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: [RT] The next shiny thing?


Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:

> To me:
>
> * throwing away the collected work of the community
> * building something rather different
> * throwing away a strong brand
> * leave all the users who has put a trust in us behind
>
> seem like a rather strange way of "saving" Cocoon.


It seemed like a rather strange way of saving Apple as well, but look 
what happened.  Now I agree about the point on "throwing away a strong 
brand", because the focus of any revolution here is to clarify and 
crystalize how to use Cocoon efficiently.  Now, the point of "leave all 
the users who has put a trust in us behind" is a bit of hyperbole IMO.  
This community successfully made that transition once before.

>
> I will continue to be proud of our brand, our product and our 
> community. And I will continue the work on *Cocoon* towards the future 
> in an evolutionary way, so that those who have put their trust in us 
> have a reasonable migration path to follow.

I've put a souple years into Cocoon, and I'm proud of the work that I've 
done.  I like the *concepts* behind Cocoon.  The problem is that I lack 
the patience to wait for evolution to take place--how long has it been 
that real blocks are not a reality in Cocoon?  I could understand if it 
were just six months and you have to have some time to make it happen.  
I take this painfully slow evolutionary pace to mean that we are unable 
to adapt quickly enough.  That's a real problem.  Esp. when I don't have 
a clear picture of how blocks is even going to help me.

My friends, the comment of Ruby on Rails and simplicity has hit our 
ecosystem.  Prepare for an ice age, adapt or die.  Slow adaptation isn't 
going to cut it.  Users have different expectations of their frameworks now.

>
> IMO the most important step towards getting an uppwards spiral again 
> is by regaining our and our communities faith in Cocoon, by keeping 
> our promisses and do a 2.2 release. Instead of running like lemmlings 
> towards the next shiny thing.
>
> We should focus on our core offerning and getting the parts of it 
> reusable outside Cocoon and of high quality, following the path 
> outlined by Marc.


Enjoy that process.  There is a lot of pain involved with doing 
restructurings of Cocoon.  As much as I like Cocoon, I honestly believe 
that the effort to bring order out of chaos is going to be much higher 
than the effort to build a new system.  That's my two cents.

>
> For you attention seekers out there, OSGi based blocks will draw a lot 
> of attention towards Cocoon, and it is innovation, not immitation.
>
> /Daniel

:)  Honestly, too little, too late.  Just how much attention has OSGi 
received over the years?  It's been around at least as long as Avalon, 
but Avalon received much more attention (albeit negative attention).  It 
has been living quietly behind the scenes now for a long time.


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