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From JD Daniels>
Subject Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down
Date Tue, 04 Oct 2005 15:51:04 GMT
I'd like to chime in here.

Your points make perfect sense, But as a user ( I say user because 
cocoon internals are beyond my capability/time constraints to figure 
out) I get stuck with a "WTF" moment, struggle, struggle, struggle, 
Email users@, wait maybe 3-4 days, rewrite the mail because maybe I'm 
not being clear on my problem, ask again, wait a few more days, then 
mail the dev list. Answer usually shows up in 6-8 hours ( I think 
because I am in western Canada, and you all are asleep when I mail :) )

I have all these messages in the same mail folder, and I am just as bad 
about  reading the user list and answering the questions I am able to.

The first 2 years were, basically, hell. But once I figured out the 
basics, I find my self not reading the list so much, and just emptying 
the folder when I hit about 2000 messages (Pausing on the usually very 
interesting [RT]'s ) because everything works now - I figured out how to 
use it, I am off making my own POJO's to plug into the basic cocoon 
install I have settled on. I have a suspicion that the drop in traffic 
is attributable to this - users simply evolve. The questions I have to 
ask now (As opposed to when I started with cocoon) simply can't be 
answered by the other new people on users@

I think consolidating the two lists would be very helpful because it 
will be a single resource we all would use.

Maybe I am talking out my *** , but there's my thoughts.


Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>> In these days of wild thoughts, here's another one: how about closing 
>> the users@ list and having just one list for cocoon-related discussions?
>> I think I have a few good reasons for this:
>> One: The line between cocoon users and developers is fairly thin, it 
>> is not as in Open Office for example, where most users do not even 
>> know what the C language is. Our users are more and more competent 
>> software developers who would often have interesting things to say if 
>> they were around, and might like this place more if they felt more 
>> involved. Cocoon has been finding its niche as a tool for serious 
>> application developers, as opposed to a press-button publishing tool, 
>> which it has never been and will never be.
>> Two: my guess is that many dev@ subscribers could answer some users@ 
>> questions very quickly, but sometimes we don't bother looking at the 
>> list, and some of us are probably not even subscribed there. It's a 
>> waste of energy, and has probably caused otherwise competent people to 
>> go away after not getting good enough answers.
>> Three: dev@ subscribers tend to use good messages subjects and [TOPIC 
>> MARKERS] in subject lines to make the lists easy to filter, visually 
>> or automatically. So I'm not worried about the increased traffic, 
>> we'll find a way to make it sortable by teaching our community about 
>> good subject lines or defining a few more [markers].  Okay, this is 
>> not really a *reason*, but it's needed for my argumentation ;-D
>> Four: for many subjects one does not know on which list to post, again 
>> a waste of energy as threads regulary bounce between the lists. We 
>> developers tend to discuss between ourselves things that are of 
>> general interest, without bothering to move to users@ as it's not "our 
>> home".
>> Five: having two lists, one for Highly Qualified Meritocratic Core 
>> Developers and another for Mere Users does not sound like the openness 
>> and flat structure that we're advocating (I'm being a bit provocative 
>> here, on purpose ;-)
>> Six; the closing down of the docs@ list has only been positive, by 
>> defragmenting the community w.r.t docs and allowing all developers to 
>> be informed of what's happening with the [docs] (hint: note the good 
>> use of the [marker]).
>> Seven: Having a single point of discussion will help us know our users 
>> better, this alone is worth its weight in bytes.
>> So, WDYT?
> I don't have that many reasons, but I don't think this is a good idea:
> One: Marketing wise, this will be a very bad sign, and would give to the 
> outside world the impression that the Cocoon acceptance has shrunk so 
> much than two lists are too much. And although traffic has dropped, 
> we're far from that.
> Two: Cocoon-dev is scary for newbies, or even intermediate users. 
> Disruptive random thoughts, design discussions about the very deep guts 
> of the engine, etc. Some of my colleague, which I consider advanced 
> users sometimes tell me they don't understand what the heck I'm talking 
> about in some of my posts. If we want more people to come to Cocoon, 
> exposing them to the dev's foolish discussions will just make them turn 
> away.
> Now you're right that some developers neglect users@ (yeah, I'm in this 
> category). This used to be because of the huge traffic. In my 
> Thunderbird, users@ is deep down in the lists I read through 
> That's a bad thing and I will now use a regular mail 
> subscription so that it sits just beside the dev@ folder that I monitor 
> every 5 minutes. And I strongly invite other devs in the same situation 
> as me to do so.
> Let's consider the users-fr@ example: some people have started 
> participating there, then started to participate to users@ and are now 
> on dev@, even if occasionally. We need IMO different discussion areas 
> where different kind of topic are to be addressed, and where people can 
> progress.
> Now the main point is that progression in the lists should go from 
> bottom to top (i.e. users->dev) and that once you feel fluent in an 
> upper level (no pejorative meaning intented with "upper") you should 
> still be present in the lower levels to share your knowledge. Once 
> again, I'm one of the faulty devs regarding this, and I think that if we 
> all dedicate to users@ a bit of the time we spend for dev@, that can 
> make a difference.
> Sylvain

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