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From Thomas Lutz <>
Subject Re: [RT] Is Cocoon Obsolete?
Date Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:01:44 GMT
Jorg Heymans wrote:

>Luca Morandini wrote:
>>Consider: 1) Declining cocoon-users activity.
>This worries me as well, especially the last couple of months it has
>become very obvious [1].
>"Why?" you might ask:
>Is the framework stable? Have most issues been solved/answered already?
>Does everything Just Work(tm) and we only have happy users? Or are
>people silently jumping ship?
 From the view of a recent cocoon beginner:
With the existing docs it is really tough to get started. If you really 
want to or have to use it, you'll fight your way through. Afters some 
time, you've reached the level you need in the blocks you use, and your 
mail-list-activity fades away. The very powerful new features added in 
the past few minor releases, starting with 2.1, created a lot of "not 
found in the docs but should work according to the samples or the 
source" problems, at least for me.

Every second exception I googled for gave no or poor results, so I think 
this gap has been filled by the mailing-lists

<snip />

>>3) Struts being more and more popular.
>often discussed here, very true - as much as we hate (to admit) it
>>My 0.02 EUR: I think Cocoon will remain a "niche" framework, used for
>>complex applications and/or by gifted developers.
>Yup, and that's exactly the niche we need to get out of.
><marketing type="idea">
>Lets do a video like Rails [2], a picture says more than a thousand
>words, a video more than a thousand pictures! WDOT? Can something like
>this put us to shame or work in our advantage?
That's the problem ! You're perfectly right. Every month I have to 
re-convince my boss, that it was the right decision to kick out struts 
and use cocoon instead. What he tells me is
"google around, and you'll find struts, tapestry, turbine in almost 
every blog, onjava article and case study, but there's nothing about cocoon.
Everybody says it's complicated, hard to use, and needs experiences java 
developers, with all that action's stuff..."
All you find about cocoon are really old comparisons, where cocoon 
without forms and flow has no chance to keep up with the others.

Some immediate small but powerful? improvements I could think of:

-relayout the startpage
-- there should be a link to the sample setup on
-- there should be a features page, with direct links to the samples 
(something like, but updated :-))
--- after two months i realized how powerful unions and cases are, and 
there is nothing that points you to the power of CForms...
-- well, it is not allowed to compare in advertisments here in austria, 
but, why not set up a comparison table of some major web-frameworks
-- who cares about Cocoon 1.x and Cocoon 2.0 links on the start page ?
-- i recently read in a blog that it's really funny that a publishing- 
and webframework like cocoon has a really unstructured homepage...
-- jorg's video idea ...

-write some articles ?
-- i don't know how easy/difficult it is to get onto onjava or slashdot, 
but hey, some of you are apache commiters :-) !

-get the new doc's online... try to merge the wiki and the existing 
docs, like php does... I think daisy is capable of doing this user's 
comment stuff ?

-take the feedback you get from bugzilla to encourage the community
-- there are really a lot of patches supplied by the users...
-- it looks like bugzilla is just a one-way stack... patch in, never out 
:-) ...

BUT :-)
I think it is the best framework around, and it won't be obsolete that 
soon :-)


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