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From Sylvain Wallez <sylv...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [RT] Is Cocoon Obsolete?
Date Sun, 02 Oct 2005 08:51:47 GMT
Joerg Heinicke wrote:

> On 30.09.2005 23:57, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Over the last 6 months, I worked pretty heavily on Mozilla as a 
>> platform.
>
>
> As you might know I (or we at Virbus at that time) have created an 
> application built on Mozilla [1] [2].
>
>> but most important, is that pretty much everything that cocoon was 
>> born to do, you can now do it in firefox directly.
>
>
> And we also perceived the fact that Cocoon to a large extent was no 
> longer used in the way it was targeted. AFAIR the only "classical" 
> pipeline was a serializing of business objects to XML and transforming 
> these structures to RDF. The other tasks could have been done by other 
> software too, e.g. delivering static resources. So, yes, I can agree 
> to a certain extent to your thoughts.
>
>> I do that for my latest web sites and the more I learn how to driven 
>> the client, the less I feel the need for advanced server frameworks. 
>> Is it just me?  Is client side advancement making cocoon and all its 
>> machinery
>> to compensate for advanced web client obsolete and archaic?
>
>
> No. Cocoon is not and will not become obselete IMO. First you need a 
> server framework, somewhat has still to respond to requests. Now must 
> it be an advanced one? What's advanced? Is Struts advanced? Must it be 
> Cocoon?
>
> At least I prefer it by far. Cocoon is the most flexible framework and 
> is probably the one that best suits to the new requirements. So Cocoon 
> has maybe to move its focus - for the case rich clients really take 
> off. But I can see that frameworks like Struts with a focus on just 
> view and controller might become obsolete.
>
> For Cocoon removing the creation of UIs from the server still leaves 
> enough room as integration platform (serializing business objects, 
> getting data from anywhere) or for fulfilling non-functional 
> requirements, e.g. caching.


+1 (not much time for a lengthy answer).

With Forms+Ajax, it's true that Cocoon is somehow underused: very few 
pipelines definitions, and most of the work is done in flowscripts and 
jxtemplates (and of course business logic classes). So we may wonder why 
using Cocoon at all for this. Well, just cforms + flowscript + 
continuations makes it so easy! Add some automatic binding to 
database/object model that seems to be in the air currently, and that 
will be even easier.

Now as has been said, life is not just about webapps, but also about 
complex publishing and fetching and storing data here and there. And 
Cocoon will shine for a long time here.

Also, Mozilla is definitely cool and powerful, but we can't say that 
Cocoon must be trashed because Mozilla can be used as an application 
platform: JavaWebStart makes the same promise, and how many widespread 
apps use it?

Finally, thinking that everybody will use Mozilla is a dream (and a 
dictator's one -- think monopoly):
- on the desktop Microsoft, like it or not, is the dominant player, and 
there is Safari, Konqueror, etc...
- the mobile web is taking off, and these terminals don't have xul nor 
xslt inside,
- millions of people in emerging countries will use low-end PCs with a 
simple browser [1] [2]

And Cocoon is a great tool to target all these various browsers.

Now it's true that Cocoon became fat over the years, and that it should 
be put on diet. But this is a difficult thing as so many users rely on 
the fat...

Sylvain

[1] http://www.techreview.com/articles/05/09/wo/wo_092805bullis.asp
[2] http://laptop.media.mit.edu/

-- 
Sylvain Wallez                        Anyware Technologies
http://people.apache.org/~sylvain     http://www.anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member     Research & Technology Director


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