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From Ben Pope <>
Subject Re: Marking cforms stable in 2.1.8
Date Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:23:30 GMT
Ralph Goers wrote:
> Ben Pope wrote:
>> You might as well just throw away all semantics, I doubt there are 
>> many people here who want to release something whose API they know 
>> will change, and then have to support it. With all due respect, you've 
>> been around here long enough to know that you have to scratch your own 
>> itches or wait for somebody else to.
> Yes. I understand that.  What I don't understand is that we have killed 
> off the alternative forms blocks and have been telling folks to use 
> CForms.  But at the same time we are telling them that it is not 
> stable.  In effect, this means we are telling our customers that Cocoon 
> as a whole is not stable because it does not have a stable forms 
> framework.  And while I haven't yet wandered into the code in CForms I 
> care greatly how Cocoon is perceived by our customers.

Well yes, this is the problem.  I guess that by deprecating the other forms implementations,
the intention was to get greater usage of CForms so that it will receive the extra work 
required to stabilise it.  Unfortunately, this hasn't happened.

> Now CForms has been under development for quite some time.  I find it 
> hard to believe that if the problems that are left were so serious that 
> it makes the framework unusable in a production environment that they 
> wouldn't have been fixed by now.

Well thats the whole point, I don't think there are any serious issues that prevent it being
used in production environment.  It's just that the API is not as neat as "we" would 
like it to be.

> The bottom line is you cannot have code sitting around forever telling 
> people its great but you have to use it at your own risk cause we might 
> change it anytime we feel like it.  This has just been going on for far 
> too long.  The code is never going to be perfect.
> So either a) formally support what is being delivered or b) fix it so it 
> can be supported.  Otherwise we need to find a forms framework that can 
> be supported.

Yes, I agree.  The question still remains as to who's itch is irritating enough.  I also agree
that if Cocoon is going to have a small core, that ultimately will consist of CForms, 
JXTemplate (or CTemplate?) and, well, core, then it needs to marked stable ASAP.  As far as
I can tell, much work is being done in the templating areas, and CForms is hardly 
inactive.  To me, it looks like all these things will come together for 2.2, I'm not sure
there is enough interest out there to get 2.1 "stable".

It looks like the major contributors here see problems and/or inconsistancies with the core
APIs that they would like fixed for 2.2, and that seems to be the primary push here.  I 
see very little talk of the direction for 2.1, it seems that it is already history in the
minds of many commitors, in many respects.

Of course, I do not mean to offend anybody here, and I love the work you are all doing, and
I see your vision for 2.2, and it looks nice.  I try to keep up with whats going on 
here, although it can be a bit heavy sometimes, I'm mostly an observer looking in and thats
what I see.

Thanks for your time (and effort).


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