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From "Antonio Gallardo" <agalla...@agssa.net>
Subject Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Date Tue, 24 May 2005 21:45:33 GMT
On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 16:18, Sebastien Arbogast dijo:
> 2005/5/24, Upayavira <uv@odoko.co.uk>:
>> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>> > On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
>> >
>> >>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>> >>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point
>> :
>> >>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>> >>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>> >>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>> >>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>> >>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>> >>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>> >>>according to its own skills.
>> >>>
>> >>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>> >>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>> >>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>> >>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>> >>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>> >>using our own dog food.
>> >>
>> >>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>> >>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>> >>laugh at us and go away.
>> >
>> >
>> > Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make
>> the
>> > things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
>> > related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the
>> Cocoon
>> > documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
>> >
>> > We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
>> > Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the
>> problem is
>> > not about the technology.
>>
>> That is not correct. To use Forrest, Lenya, Daisy, or Drupal, for that
>> matter, you need to be familiar with it. Mark is familiar with Drupal,
>> so it is what he used.
>>
>> As I have said previously, people who want to write docs aren't
>> necessarily the same people who want to learn and install (or even
>> write) content management systems. If we want people to use a Cocoon
>> based CMS, then we need to give them one! I.e. install it somewhere, set
>> up the systems so that people who want to write content can just do it,
>> without having to learn to use SVN, to download Forrest, etc, etc. No,
>> just go to a website, click 'add', and start typing.
>>
>> Regards, Upayavira
>
> I won't enter this polemic since we have already had this discussion
> before and Upayavira's arguments speak for themselves.
> Sylvain and Antonio let me just ask you one single question : if those
> Cocoon-based CMS are so wonderful (and actually they are, but not for
> what we need) why is that that Cocoon documentation is still such an
> issue after five years of Cocoon development ?

The answer to your question is because things evolve in time. I will like
to see you 3 or 4 years ago when there was literally NO cocoon
documentation at all. Just a handfull to start. But this is not the point
now.

Being rethoric as you like, there are a lot of other question to ask. For
example, show me the documents written that does not contain info that is
not in our wiki our docs our mail archives?

> For you technology is not the matter. For us it is.
> And we want to get things done now. That's it.

Well, where are the new great docs? As you told, you want the things done
and I want to see them! ;-)

The only thing I was able to see is a lot of mail talking endlessly about
how to improve the docs and nothing more. That's all. And BTW, I already
read a lot of this mails about the same topic for years. It is really
boring.

> End of this discussion for me...

As you wish. Should I can you now, boss? ;-)

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo.

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