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From Sylvain Wallez <>
Subject Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Date Tue, 24 May 2005 21:51:39 GMT
Sebastien Arbogast wrote:

>2005/5/24, Upayavira <>:
>>Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>>>On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
>>>>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>>>>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>>>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>>>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>>>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>>>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>>>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>>>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>>>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>>>>according to its own skills.
>>>>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>>>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>>>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>>>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>>>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>>>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>>>>using our own dog food.
>>>>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>>>>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>>>>laugh at us and go away.
>>>Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make the
>>>things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
>>>related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the Cocoon
>>>documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
>>>We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
>>>Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the problem is
>>>not about the technology.
>>That is not correct. To use Forrest, Lenya, Daisy, or Drupal, for that
>>matter, you need to be familiar with it. Mark is familiar with Drupal,
>>so it is what he used.
>>As I have said previously, people who want to write docs aren't
>>necessarily the same people who want to learn and install (or even
>>write) content management systems. If we want people to use a Cocoon
>>based CMS, then we need to give them one! I.e. install it somewhere, set
>>up the systems so that people who want to write content can just do it,
>>without having to learn to use SVN, to download Forrest, etc, etc. No,
>>just go to a website, click 'add', and start typing.
>>Regards, Upayavira
>I won't enter this polemic since we have already had this discussion before and Upayavira's
arguments speak for themselves.
>Sylvain and Antonio let me just ask you one single question : if those Cocoon-based CMS
are so wonderful (and actually they are, but not for what we need) why is that that Cocoon
documentation is still such an issue after five years of Cocoon development ?

Before writing such statements, please read the last five years of 
cocoon-dev archives, little padawan.

Start here:

Cocoon has been used for ages in large commercial but closed systems, 
and we wanted to use Cocoon for our docs because we are proud of what 
we've written. Now it's only recently that some usable opensource CMSes 
built on Cocoon came to life. And it's even more recently (a few hours 
ago AFAIU) that the Apache infrastructure can provide us with the needed 
resources to host a Cocoon-based CMS at Apache.

That explains the state of our docs, along with other issues I already 
taked about related to the composition of the Cocoon developper 
community, which are its primary users and augment their favorite tool 
when their projects require it, and have that expert knowledge that 
(unfortunately) don't require that much docs.

>For you technology is not the matter. For us it is.

Open your ears wide: technology does matter to me. That's a main point. 
I don't want and will not write Cocoon docs on a PHP-based system. 
Period. Is that clear now?

>And we want to get things done now. That's it. End of this discussion for me...

Beginning of the discussion about an ASF-hosted Cocoon-powered 
documentation system for us...


Sylvain Wallez                        Anyware Technologies  
Apache Software Foundation Member     Research & Technology Director

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