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From Sebastien Arbogast <>
Subject Re: [CocoonInAction] 2 new articles
Date Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:32:02 GMT
> Why is Orbeon "the first one"? FYI, Cocoon started in 1999. Orbeon
> claims to be standards-compliant but it's not much more than Cocoon is,
> and Cocoon's architecture brings much more potential to *integrate*
> implementation of standards.

"The first one" was more a rhetoric formula : you always present the
alternative solutions first, and then the one you've chosen because
you think there is the best. It's a way to put things in perspective
to explain the motivation of this project : it's not only because I
worship Cocoon like others worship Firefox ;o), but because I've
compared it to other solutions on the market. And in every comparison
there are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.

> Yeah, they claim XForms compliance. But how much of XForms? Not that
> much more than what XMLForm was providing in Cocoon 2 years ago when we
> decided to abandon it because a server-side XForm implementation is
> either overly complex or too much limited.

I don't quite agree about that : I find their approach of XForms quite
natural in fact, and much more "developer-friendly" and structured
than Cocoon Forms one, even if I agree it is less powerful. And the
thing is the current trend seems to tend to a massive adoption of
XForms on client-side. So implementing XForms is an asset for them
because what you learn for OPS, you will be able to use it out of it
in future applications. Whereas for CForms...

> Also being a W3C member means nothing regarding the quality of a
> company: you just have to pay [1] to be a W3C member.
> </rant>

Yes but it's also a proof that you're deeply involved in the
standardization process and work to maximize the use of standards. Of
course you can do that without paying the fee to enter W3C, but if I'm
not wrong, you can't participate in the process, you can't make the
standards yourself, you can just "undergo".

Don't get me wrong, I don't make propaganda for competition there. I
just try to be objective, to present advantages and drawbacks of both
solutions in a few lines, to explain why I think (as a user) that
Cocoon is a better solution, and why it deserves a few improvements
(and especially documentation improvements) to try to make it the
ideal solution. Have you ever seen OPS documentation : it's not very
rich because as I said OPS has less features than Cocoon, but it's
clear, coherent, well-designed and structured, and updated. That's
precisely why I came to OPS first even if I had heard of Cocoon, and
I'm sure this happens to others.

I don't think that we should be afraid of competition. That's what is
interesting with Open Source : you can learn from competition, compare
to it, and even take good parts out from competition to use them for
yourself. And let's not forget the "point-of-view" issue : you and I
are convinced, we know that Cocoon is the best Open Source solution on
the market for XML presentation and publication servers, but newcomers
don't. Look at this page :
I don't know exactly if all this information is verified, but I think
this type of comparison is a good point.
Anyway, this was not the purpose of my article because it's not really
for newcomers. I just tried to put things in perspective, inside my
own user and developer experience, in order to explain my own initial
motivation on this project. BTW I replaced "the first one"... ;o)

> BTW, I tried to register on your site to comment on the article, but it
> constantly refused my login.

Here is the standard procedure I've just tested and it should work :
- Link to create a new account :
- Click on "Join Now"
- Accept the "I am over 13 clause"
- Fill in your username, password and email (at least) ATTENTION :
your password must be at least 5 characters !
- don't forget to check "I agree to be bound by this website's Terms
of Use and Privacy Policy" at the end of the form
- Click on "New user" then on "Finish"
- Then your password is displayed again and you can click on Login
Now you should be in your account.
I don't see you in members list, which means there was a problem
during registration.
I should change the standard procedure soon to include an e-mail
verification but for now, this one should work just fine.

If anyone has problems or questions about the use of this site, please
let me know here. I don't know this CMS very deeply for the time
being, so there can be a few scratches during the first weeks.

Sebastien ARBOGAST

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