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From Sylvain Wallez <sylv...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [CocoonInAction] 2 new articles
Date Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:10:32 GMT
Sebastien Arbogast wrote:

>>Why is Orbeon "the first one"? FYI, Cocoon started in 1999. Orbeon
>>claims to be standards-compliant but it's not much more than Cocoon is,
>>and Cocoon's architecture brings much more potential to *integrate*
>>implementation of standards.
>>    
>>
>
>"The first one" was more a rhetoric formula : you always present the
>alternative solutions first, and then the one you've chosen because
>you think there is the best. It's a way to put things in perspective
>to explain the motivation of this project : it's not only because I
>worship Cocoon like others worship Firefox ;o), but because I've
>compared it to other solutions on the market. And in every comparison
>there are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.
>  
>

You missed the rhetoric formula, and the text is (was, now) as it talks 
about opensource XML frameworks, and then "The first one is Orbeon", 
implying some precedence either in age or value.

>>Yeah, they claim XForms compliance. But how much of XForms? Not that
>>much more than what XMLForm was providing in Cocoon 2 years ago when we
>>decided to abandon it because a server-side XForm implementation is
>>either overly complex or too much limited.
>>    
>>
>
>I don't quite agree about that : I find their approach of XForms quite
>natural in fact, and much more "developer-friendly" and structured
>than Cocoon Forms one, even if I agree it is less powerful. And the
>thing is the current trend seems to tend to a massive adoption of
>XForms on client-side. So implementing XForms is an asset for them
>because what you learn for OPS, you will be able to use it out of it
>in future applications. Whereas for CForms...
>  
>

Whereas for CForms you can do today things that are totally omitted by 
XForms because it's a client spec, such as connection and interaction 
with data outside the form. How can you e.g. validate in an XForm that 
an input is an existing purchase order ID in your database?

Now if XForms is successful in the client (Firefox support is a nice 
thing, but what about IE?) you can be sure that Cocoon will provide a 
powerful combo using the CForms infrastructure server-side connected to 
client-side XForms.

Also FWIW, you can use CForms without even knowing that you do. I have a 
few stylesheets that produce form definitions and templates from raw 
HTML pages containing a few additional attributes...

>>Also being a W3C member means nothing regarding the quality of a
>>company: you just have to pay [1] to be a W3C member.
>></rant>
>>    
>>
>
>Yes but it's also a proof that you're deeply involved in the
>standardization process and work to maximize the use of standards. Of
>course you can do that without paying the fee to enter W3C, but if I'm
>not wrong, you can't participate in the process, you can't make the
>standards yourself, you can just "undergo".
>  
>

FYI, at my company we had some contacts with W3C people and we recently 
received a mail from their PR team saying (tranlsated) : "This would be 
the appropriate time for your company to join the consortium, 
participate in the numerous W3C activities and share your experiences in 
the interested working groups. W3C also offers its members a lot of 
opportunities to promote their activities internationally".

What about respecting standards there? Nothing. Join the W3C because its 
good for your business (and good for W3C's also).

>Don't get me wrong, I don't make propaganda for competition there. I
>just try to be objective, to present advantages and drawbacks of both
>solutions in a few lines, to explain why I think (as a user) that
>Cocoon is a better solution, and why it deserves a few improvements
>(and especially documentation improvements) to try to make it the
>ideal solution. Have you ever seen OPS documentation : it's not very
>rich because as I said OPS has less features than Cocoon, but it's
>clear, coherent, well-designed and structured, and updated. That's
>precisely why I came to OPS first even if I had heard of Cocoon, and
>I'm sure this happens to others.
>  
>

I totally agree with you on this point. OPS docs are clean, even I they 
left me frustrated because they leave a number of things at the tutorial 
level. But what they have is clearly better presented that what Cocoon has.

>I don't think that we should be afraid of competition. That's what is
>interesting with Open Source : you can learn from competition, compare
>to it, and even take good parts out from competition to use them for
>yourself. And let's not forget the "point-of-view" issue : you and I
>are convinced, we know that Cocoon is the best Open Source solution on
>the market for XML presentation and publication servers, but newcomers
>don't. Look at this page :
>http://www.orbeon.com/community/cocoon
>I don't know exactly if all this information is verified, but I think
>this type of comparison is a good point.
>  
>

We looked at it, and some points in this comparison are clearly wrong.

>Anyway, this was not the purpose of my article because it's not really
>for newcomers. I just tried to put things in perspective, inside my
>own user and developer experience, in order to explain my own initial
>motivation on this project. BTW I replaced "the first one"... ;o)
>  
>

Thanks. The new version makes it clear that you explain your own path 
through XML frameworks and that _you_ met Orbeon first. That wasn't what 
was implied by the previous version.

BTW, I met one of Orbeon's founders and he explained me they started OPS 
because they were frustrated by Cocoon 1. Now Cocoon people also were 
frustrated, and this led to Cocoon 2.

Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Wallez                        Anyware Technologies
http://apache.org/~sylvain            http://anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member     Research & Technology Director


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