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From "Linden H van der (MI)" <H.vanderLin...@MI.unimaas.nl>
Subject RE: "Apache Cocoon in Action" suggestion and call for opinions
Date Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:53:40 GMT
Hi,

sorry I've been too busy lately to participate in anything I've promised
over time. It's not that I don't want to do it any more, just time...
well, you know.

Reading this thread, something clicked as I've been working on a simple
website using Cocoon with simple XML files as "backend". So no high-end,
sophisticated connecting-legacy-to-homegrown-software-to-Cocoon stuff,
but simply taking advantage of things already available in Cocoon.

I could try and write down the process I've gone through and using that
as a base for a tutorial for "MyFirstCocoonWebApp". I know I sometimes
work backwards (i.e. develop first, think later ;-)), so things might be
out of (efficient) order.

The website I'm referring to is currently online at: http://137.120.8.30


It's a multi-lingual (NL + EN) site with some Cforms for registration
and a connection to an eXist database for some searching.

My idea about this tutorial is building a similar website e.g.
"MyPersonalSite" containing biography and CV, "MySmallBusinessSite" (who
are we, what do we do, portfolio, contact form).

WDYT?

Bye, Helma

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Upayavira [mailto:uv@upaya.co.uk] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 April, 2005 10:30
> To: dev@cocoon.apache.org
> Subject: Re: "Apache Cocoon in Action" suggestion and call 
> for opinions
> 
> 
> Sebastien,
> 
> I know Reinhard has said a lot already. I just wanted to make a few 
> comments.
> 
> 1) Thanks for coming over to the dev list. It is the best place for 
> these discussions as all developers will be reading what it said.
> 
> 2) What myself and Reinhard have conceived is a container for 
> ALL docs. 
> We need first of all to bring the reference docs across, and 
> to scrap a 
> lot of the crud that has built up over the years. That, I hope, will 
> establish a foundation upon which we can build more howto and 
> tutorial 
> like docs.
> 
> 3) I completely agree with you that such walkthrough docs are 
> completely 
> necessary and the work I have done with Reinhard very much takes that 
> into account. We just haven't yet conceived of exactly what 
> form those 
> docs will take, and your assistance (and that of others too) is most 
> welcome in crafting this side of our documentation. So long as we can 
> keep it cohesive, then the more the better.
> 
> Thanks for your comments, and I look forward to seeing what 
> you come up 
> with!
> 
> Regards, Upayavira
> 
> 
> 
> Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I may have something to suggest concernig the new documentation 
> > effort. The main problem that I had to face while begining to work 
> > with Cocoon was the enormous gap between the level of the first 
> > tutorials I found on the wiki or other sources like 
> theserverside.com 
> > or IBM DeveloperWorks. I mean those detailed articles about 
> particular 
> > features of Cocoon are very useful as a reference when you 
> know how to 
> > use Cocoon  but it's very difficult to integrate things 
> when you are a 
> > beginner. And it's even worse with samples because either 
> they make a 
> > lot of basic assumptions to fit precisely what's said in 
> the parallel 
> > documentation or wiki article, or we get enormous technology 
> > demonstrations like CHS, which are very difficult to dive into.
> > 
> > And as it seems, the new documentation effort is mainly aimed at 
> > reviewing and reorganizing existing articles and then 
> filling the gaps 
> > with missing articles. The result of that process will be at best a 
> > wonderful reference, but it won't solve this gap between "getting 
> > started" stuff and everyday-work with cocoon.
> > 
> > So my suggestion is the following : all the technologies 
> I've learnt, 
> > Java in first, I've learnt them thanks to some great books based on 
> > case studies explained in parallel with theoretical issues, 
> in order 
> > to apply things concretely and progressively as you discover and 
> > understand them, while building a common application by 
> aggregation. 
> > Sort of a big tutorial like you can read them in Hibernate 
> in Action 
> > or J2EE tutorial for example.
> > 
> > The objectives/topics that should be covered in such a 
> "Apache Cocoon 
> > in Action" tutorial could be :
> > 
> > 1st part : Getting started with Cocoon
> > - What is Cocoon ? History and theory
> > - Installing Cocoon on Tomcat : building process, blocks 
> description 
> > etc.
> > - Hello Cocoon : classical but always efficient to demonstrate and
> > reassure people...
> > - Integrating Cocoon into your development environment :
> > application/web server, source versioning control, build 
> tools (ant or
> > preferably maven), IDE (eclipse and tools like xml editor,
> > anyware-tech plugins, etc.), information sources (mail lists,
> > websites, etc.)
> > - Case study presentation : goals to achieve, overview, 
> etc. the exact
> > nature of this case study is still to determine but I think 
> it has to
> > be as common as possible. For example it could be a complete website
> > with a backend
> > 
> > 2nd part : describing the basic concepts and giving links 
> to the new 
> > reference for details each specific feature. Each chapter would end 
> > with integration of concepts into the case study
> > - sitemap concepts + matchers, readers, protocols, modules
> > - generators + quick introduction to XML
> > - transformers + quick introduction to XSLT
> > - serializers + quick introduction to XHTML/CSS
> > - resources and views
> > - flow control inside the sitemap : selectors, redirecting, error 
> > handling, actions,etc.
> > 
> > 3rd part : advanced concepts making it possible to optimize 
> things, to 
> > improve performance and accessibility of the case study application
> > - caching
> > - internationalization
> > - forms (with an overview of the different forms technologies, not 
> > only CForms, in order to understand why CForms are a good choice)
> > - control flow (with a introduction to apples if possible)
> > - XSP and logicsheets
> > 
> > 4th part : integrating Cocoon with other tools to add a 
> backend to the 
> > sample application
> > - authentication framework to protect the backend
> > - introduction to Java, design patterns and avalon
> > - introduction to Hibernate and AndroMDA for data 
> representation using 
> > an embedded HSQLDB database + integrating Hibernate into Cocoon
> > - advanced CForms and control flow to edit Java Beans
> > - integrating other blocks with small introduction samples 
> for axis, 
> > batik and other interesting blocks
> > 
> > .....
> > 
> > This is just a suggestion and I obviously miss many things because 
> > I've been working with Cocoon for only a few months, but I 
> think that 
> > this content should help people to fill in the gap and 
> getting to know 
> > that wonderful tool better. Moreover this documentation could be 
> > written and reviewed in parallel and tight collaboration 
> with the new 
> > Cocoon 2.2 documentation effort to make sure that the 
> information is 
> > accurate and exact and to keep stuff in sync. And it could 
> be written 
> > and reviewed/corrected progressively with the help of users giving 
> > feedback about what's missing and what should be removed.
> > 
> > What do you think ?
> > 
> > Would anyone be interested in helping me to write such a 
> documentation 
> > ?
> > 
> > Do you have ideas about technical infrastructure we could 
> use : wiki, 
> > mail lists, maybe forums and IRC channel which are ideal for user 
> > feedback and easy communication, documentation format (forrest, SVN 
> > repository, writing and reviewing process) ?
> > 
> > What about work team organization (I find this very 
> important to avoid 
> > stepping over each other's feet and make sure everything is correct 
> > and precise, even if it's longer) ?
> > 
> > What about translations : would some people interested in 
> translating 
> > that documentation to other languages as we write it 
> (french ? spanish
> > ?) maybe a few polls on local development communities would be 
> > necessary to determine what languages are worth translating to.
> > 
> > What about a common website area to centralize efforts and make the 
> > project known to users and potential writers ?
> > 
> > Maybe it's not necessary to talk about the content in the 
> first place, 
> > to insist on whether or not it would be interesting and if 
> some people 
> > are willing to participate, and what could be the general shape of 
> > such a project... I'm waiting for your opinions.
> > 
> > FTR, I should precise that right now I'm working on a big project 
> > using Cocoon as its core XML server and it's my first project using 
> > Cocoon, which implies that
> > -> I won't be able to spend my whole days on this
> > -> I don't have much knowledge about Cocoon
> > which means that even if I intend to use my newbie aspect 
> to make the 
> > documentation accessible and my great interest in Cocoon to 
> make this 
> > documentation successful, we would need many interested 
> > diverse-skilled people to bring this to realty in a reasonable time 
> > (that is before Cocoon 4 at least ;o)
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > --
> > Sebastien ARBOGAST
> > 
> 
> 

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