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From Mark Lowe <>
Subject Re: Dependencies
Date Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:08:35 GMT
Message is that even if I'm okay, past fustration barriers and so on,
its a bigger problem than just me understanding whats going on. You're
a trainer, you must have come across these problems. Yes so far I've
needed to dig through the source to see whats going on, despite trying
to blackbox cocoon and use it as a framework.

The reference to building a struts-spring-hibernate project was to
simply illustrate that there ways of being able to get folk in and
coding quickly, able to work on different parts of a system, without
understanding all the parts, and without requiring to compile the
framework itself.

Perhaps a jvm version number with the archieve id would be a way of
getting around this. I'd like to understand this incompatability
between 1.3 and 1.4 with jvm versions and how other projects manage
this. My guess is that the problem would be with one of the
dependencies rather than the cocoon source. The thread seems to be a
general discussion on how its okay to expect folk wanting to edit html
shouldn't mind compiling the framework s/he is hoping to use, with
little to no mention of the real problem (where the incompatability


On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:54:39 +0100, Reinhard Poetz <> wrote:
> Mark Lowe wrote:
> > Using cocoon isn't a particular problem for me personally, I'm used to
> > working with this stuff and have worked on all tiers of web
> > applications so I have a pretty good insight into where the problems
> > lie. The problem is how to you get a web tier type person to digest
> > this stuff, we know xslt is already a problem in this sense, but
> > ideally if separation of concerns was a reality web tier folk wouldn't
> > need to compile from source. We have folk who are usually working on
> > backend stuff that might recieve a ticket to fix something cocoon
> > releated, there's no quick way in which they can make an intervention
> > without getting bogged down in too much detail about the web tier.
> >
> > I've got the 2.2 checked out, I'd be happy using it just the project
> > we're working on is between 2-3 parties all of which need to build
> > against the same version. This moving target, while understandable is
> > the crux of the problem. In the past I've managed to get projects to
> > pretty much checkout, perhaps change a db user and pw and build (e.g.
> > struts-spring-hibernate, maven downloads dependencies, xdoclet tags
> > are processed and the mapping files generated, schema is generated
> > from the mapping files, sample data for unit testing and for
> > presention folk inserted, the thing builds and everyone is away. I
> > don't know what I would have done if I had to build struts, spring
> > and/or hibernate during the build, which is the bridge that needs to
> > be crossed with cocoon.
> >
> > I am working though the source and trying to get myself to a position
> > where I can be more useful. But for the time being, you're right in
> > that I will only be a new user for a short time, in a months time I
> > want have the same insights I do now. If that sounds sarcastic then I
> > can only appologise.
> Sorry, I don't get it. What's your message? That Cocoon has bugs and you have to
> dive into the source code to fix them? Or that our documentation isn't as good
> as it could be and you have to look into the sources to find out how it works?
> Or that our build system needs to be improved?
> --
> Reinhard Pötz           Independant Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
> {Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
>                                        web(log):
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

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