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From Steven Noels <>
Subject Re: Orbeon vs Cocoon? - Live version available?
Date Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:34:37 GMT
On 17 Dec 2004, at 13:32, wrote:

> I just wonder if it is possible that those of you with in-depth 
> knowledge of
> Cocoon and the way open source communities work, can investigate other 
> major
> open source projects like Apache server, Mozilla/FireFox, Tomcat, 
> JBoss for
> that matter and see what makes them different, "better" if you like.
> I'm not talking about documentation here. There are already steps 
> taken in
> the right direction.
> More like: the rate of new releases, deprecation of older techniques, 
> the
> number of ways to solve a problem, user support.
> I've seen you guys discussing this for Cocoon and coming up with rules 
> of
> thumb that most of you stick too. So where are you in this when you 
> compare
> this to the other major open source projects?

Easy (IMHO): Cocoon is blessed and cursed by the fact that it's one of 
the very few factual bazaar projects I know, the Apache HTTPD server 
being another one. HTTPD is lucky that they "only" have to implement 
the HTTP spec (quite an understatement), where as Cocoon must (a) set 
its course, and (b) isn't driven by the energy of a single visionary 
(anymore, and for quite some time now). If Cocoon would be "owned" by a 
smaller set of contributors, it might be easier to establish a clear 
vision and set of goals, a directed drive for the project, but also the 
danger that other contributors are alienated.

As of currently, I think what worries me most is alienation of the user 
community. I must say I don't know many projects where the ratio of 
developers vs users is comparable to Cocoon's - which means (IMHO) that 
you almost need to be a Cocoon dev before you can actually use the 
product. That's asking too much patience from a user who isn't 
interested in framework, but wants to build business applications 

Steven Noels                  
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at  
stevenn at                stevenn at

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