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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: Orbeon vs Cocoon? - Live version available?
Date Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:25:00 GMT
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 17 Dec 2004, at 13:32, wrote:
>> I just wonder if it is possible that those of you with in-depth 
>> knowledge of
>> Cocoon and the way open source communities work, can investigate other 
>> major
>> open source projects like Apache server, Mozilla/FireFox, Tomcat, 
>> JBoss for
>> that matter and see what makes them different, "better" if you like.
>> I'm not talking about documentation here. There are already steps 
>> taken in
>> the right direction.
>> More like: the rate of new releases, deprecation of older techniques, the
>> number of ways to solve a problem, user support.
>> I've seen you guys discussing this for Cocoon and coming up with rules of
>> thumb that most of you stick too. So where are you in this when you 
>> compare
>> this to the other major open source projects?
> Easy (IMHO): Cocoon is blessed and cursed by the fact that it's one of 
> the very few factual bazaar projects I know, the Apache HTTPD server 
> being another one. HTTPD is lucky that they "only" have to implement the 
> HTTP spec (quite an understatement), where as Cocoon must (a) set its 
> course, and (b) isn't driven by the energy of a single visionary 
> (anymore, and for quite some time now). If Cocoon would be "owned" by a 
> smaller set of contributors, it might be easier to establish a clear 
> vision and set of goals, a directed drive for the project, but also the 
> danger that other contributors are alienated.
> As of currently, I think what worries me most is alienation of the user 
> community. I must say I don't know many projects where the ratio of 
> developers vs users is comparable to Cocoon's - which means (IMHO) that 
> you almost need to be a Cocoon dev before you can actually use the 
> product. That's asking too much patience from a user who isn't 
> interested in framework, but wants to build business applications instead.

The above, as weird as it seems to many, has been intentional (on my 
part) so far, because a higher bar increases the fact that the people 
that can actually climb that bar are far more likely to give back than 
just free ride.

The low users/dev ratio also indicates that the amount of energy that 
comes back is a lot more than what we give away, making the project 
healthy and the momentum going, even without big outside marketing.

I still think it's a mistake to prepare a more ambitious marketing 
strategy without real blocks.

It is also a *huge* mistake to measure the success of an open source 
project with numbers such as users or deployed installations.

It is also stupid to think that a project is better off with more 
users... if all those users do is to drain energy from the project.

It is also silly to believe in the sillogism that the more people out 
there use cocoon the more profiting the market around cocoon is going to be.

It is also stupid to think that we are able to absorb, as a community, a 
radical change in marketing direction without falling apart.

Let's just fix what's broken and move on from there.


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