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From Sylvain Wallez <>
Subject Re: Orbeon vs Cocoon? - Live version available?
Date Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:53:50 GMT
Steven Noels wrote:

> On 17 Dec 2004, at 10:13, wrote:
>> It would be nice if there was a place where the latest release would be
>> running, so everyone could check it out. I know this requires 
>> cleaning up
>> the crap that some people think they should enter, but that might be 
>> done
>> through some simple scripts.
>> It would also give future users the change to have a look at Cocoon 
>> before
>> doing the actual download. And newbies can verify if they have done 
>> things
>> correctly because they can compare their own version with "THE" live
>> version.
>> I know server hosting will be a problem, but maybe it's running 
>> somewhere
>> already which could be made available to "the world"?
> FWIW, this has been running on for more than two 
> years, but I pulled it down due to lack of hits. Similarly, I will be 
> dropping the demo soonish.

Well, lack of hits doesn't meen lack of interest, but maybe more lack of 
advertising (AFAIK, these demos weren't mentioned on the Apache website).

The problem is that we've always been more or less reluctant to link 
from the ASF cocoon website to resources hosted "elsewhere". Even the 
wiki. That's something we should fix, and a live demo with due 
advertising on the website front page would certainly have more visitors.

Now for sure it would be good if it could be hosted by the ASF 

> I had a Cocoon BOF two days ago at JavaPolis. I spoke to quite a few 
> folks during the conference as well, which know how we (as a company) 
> have been pushing people to use Cocoon over the past three years.
> With all due respect, I think there's only a few things we should care 
> to work on to give Cocoon more chances for success. I know there were 
> many success stories lately, but we should be realistic as well: the 
> world is looking into a shift from Struts to JSF, and that's about all 
> they care. People still perceive Cocoon as a big, complicated, scary 
> beast.

Funnily, I recently had a private chat after my recent blog entry about 
Struts [1] with Stephane Bailliez (Ant & Maven committer) which told me 
more or less the same.

> Some recurring complaints were:
> * documentation (oh well)
> * cohesive direction (as in: _only_ explain folks about things like 
> the power trio, and make sure these things work flawlessly, and stop 
> being hesitant about deprecation and removal of alternatives)
> * prune, prune, prune: make blocks separately downloadable, and drop 
> blocks which aren't supported nor used
> * make sure people don't need a bit of everything to build a decent 
> Cocoon app (as in: some Actions, some Input modules, some Javascript, 
> some Java, a bit of CForms, a choice over various O/R efforts, some 
> Springkles here and there, and so on and so forth)
> The last one doesn't mean people shouldn't use all this, it's just 
> that all this is now perceived as totally separated, isolated, 
> unrelated and incohesively documented stuff.

I can only agree with this.

> The JBoss folks were right when they told me over drinks that Cocoon 
> is too much of a research project.

Yes, but that's also because of its we-don't-have-to-respect-a-JSR 
nature which allows more creativity.

> Just to give an example: JXTG isn't even used massively (too many 
> folks still stuck with XSPs), and already we start chatting about 
> JXTG-NG. How should users believe we actually care about them? (= 
> literal remark I got yesterday!)

Mmmh... JXTG-NG has a dual purpose:
- refactor the complicated code we have today into something more 
maintainable. Similar to what happened in the CForms transformer
- pave the way for *the* dynamic template generator, just as CForms 
deprectated XMLForm.

> end-of-rant

Thanks for it :-)



Sylvain Wallez                                  Anyware Technologies 
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }

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