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From Christopher Oliver <>
Subject Re: JXTemplateGenerrator
Date Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:12:14 GMT
> Christopher Oliver wrote: 

> <snip/> 

> >> Let's face it: your code is dense as a neutron star and dense of >> 
> comments and tests as the the outter space around one. 

> > > > For what it's worth I do like _your_ writing style above. 


> >> Your respect/care for the complexity of the social dynamics that >> 
> originate around it is close to zero. 

> > > >Now, let me tell _you_ a story:


> > > If you consider this story to be comparable to OSS development, 
> then you are very far from the values of this community, and this 
> explains a lot of things regarding how you behave and answer people. 
> Developping Cocoon is not a competition. Developers don't try to bash 
> each other, but work together to build something in common. Yes, there 
> are some less experienced people. But if they are here and if they 
> have been voted in as committers, it's because they have something to 
> bring, and because they have the ability and the desire to learn. And 
> more experienced people are happy to help them on this way.

The analogy was meant to be that the Cocoon developers are all on the 
same team - not direct competitors. Of course we want our teammates to 
Anyway, the streetball story was meant to illustrate a highly 
concentrated, team-oriented, voluntary, social interaction which by my 
observations does have many parallels in open source (and commercial for 
that matter) software development (and many other social environments) . 
And the criticism that occurs there is at least an order of magnitude 
more harsh than anything you see on Apache mailing lists.

Note that there can also be plenty of positive feedback: "Good shot", 
"Nice pass", "Good move". But that positive feedback has to be earned.

Why do we play streetball?

Because it's fun.  This is the same reason people get involved is OSS, 
isn't it?

What exactly makes it fun is more mysterious.

It seems to be simply a matter of being able to do "cool stuff" on the 

Note that basketball is a team game - no single player controls what 
happens. Doing "cool stuff" _requires_ interaction with your teammates.

At least for me, the same is true for Cocoon development. The reason I 
participated in the development of flowscript and jxtg is that it seemed 
like cool stuff, thanks to the contributions of many, many, people: 
Ovidiu, Stefano, Sylvain, Pier, Ricardo, Ugo, Marc, Igor Bukanov and 
Norris Boyd (Rhino), Reinhard, Vadim, Dmitri Plotnikov (JXPath), Geir 
Magnussen (Jexl) , etc.(<- note: this is not an exhaustive list).

> >> The avalon project was taken over by peop le like you, that >> 
> considered "consensus by friction" a better way to achieve progress 

> >> and reduce the noisy babbage of social interaction with "inferior" 
> >> talents. Result: social entropy expansion that lead to thermal death.

> > > > I don't agree that I am anything like them and I don't think you 
> would > say that i f your really knew me. 

> You're right: you went away rather than manipulating people like what 
> happened in Avablon. Now people having met Stephen Mc Connell IRL said 
> he is a pleasant person, and I heard the same about several people 
> that are ususally rude in mailing-lists. People can have very 
> different behaviours in the virtualized world that is a mailing-list 
> and the real world, when physical bodies are in front of each other. 
> Unfortunately, we only know you through this list. 

Well, I think the main thing you would notice is that I don't speak in 
literary english as on this list.

I really don't know anything about Avalon, but my impression is that the 
people you refer to were in a struggle to become "king" of  Avalon. I 
hope it's clear that my involvement with Cocoon has been completely 

> >> Technical problems are way more trivial to solve than social ones. 

> > > > Personally, I find both types of problems hard to solve. 

> Which explains the current situation: you're not happy to see people 
> criticizing your work and wanting to refactor it 

You are so wrong.

I seek critcism.

> so that it is more understandable and more easily adaptable to the 
> evolution of its surrounding environment.  

> Time goes on, and things have to evolve and adapt or die. That's what 
> is happening currently with JXTG.

> Sylvain

If the result is "cool stuff", then great. If by my assessment it's not, 
then I'm not afraid to speak my mind.

-- Chris

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