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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: [RT] do me a favor, don't call them taglibs (TAL-like two-step templating?)
Date Sat, 04 Dec 2004 17:56:01 GMT
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le 3 déc. 04, à 22:35, Christian Stocker a écrit :
>> ....On 3.12.2004 21:50 Uhr, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>> All I ask from a template language:
>>>  1) something that HTML designers can edit with Dreamweaver
>>>  2) something that doesn't use namespaced tags to identify dynamic 
>>> scopes (clashes with #1)
>>>  3) something that doesn't use the name taglib
>> >
>> > That's pretty much all you have to do to make me happy.
>> Maybe Zope's TAL idea is something for you. 
>> They are very fond of the fact that it's "Dreamweaver-Compatible"
> I think we need
> a) "data templates" (for a lack of a better word), to generate XML out 
> of data (what JXTG does now),
> and
> b) "presentation templates" downstream to convert the XML to HTML or 
> other presentation markup (currently covered by XSLT, far from ideal)

I very much disagree with this.

The notion of separating a data template from a presentation template is 
arbitrary and nothing really generally useful from a SoC point of view.

I, personally, don't create XML anymore but I just work with XHTML tags 
(intermixed with other namespaced content) right from the beginning of 
my pipelines.

Tell me, is


data or presentation?

Also, I don't do "stylying" anymore with XSLT, I use CSS and all I use 
XSLT for is to "adapt" my XHTML in those cases (fewer and fewer as 
browsers and my CSS knowldge advance) where CSS can't do the job directly.

What we need is a template language. Period. Something that converts 
data *structures* into SAX events. Whether you use it for data or 
presentation or whatever else, it's up to you.

>  - oo -
> For a), JXTG does a good job currently, but having a single mechanism 
> for both would make a big difference in the number of things that people 
> have to learn to be productive with Cocoon.

Sure, that's the goal: the template system should be markup agnostic, so 
how you use it is up to you.

> For b), being dreamweaver-compatible would be a big plus, allowing less 
> technical people to create templates themselves. Using Dreamweaver or 
> not, that's not the point: DW-compatibility also means that the 
> templating system is "simple enough" for such people to grasp.

Yes, that's my point. I don't use DW or anything else  of that sort, but 
the fact that you *can* use it with that means that it's simple to learn 
*and* doesn't get in the way of what they are trying to do normally.

>  - oo -
> To me, TAL's design looks simple for simple things, yet powerful and 
> extensible.  Looks like an example to follow, maybe even like a spec to 
> adopt instead of reinventing it..

will take a look at this.


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