cocoon-dev mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Steven Noels <>
Subject Re: [RT] A Groovy Kind of Sitemap
Date Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:10:47 GMT
On 29 Jul 2004, at 19:34, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> A little bit of history is needed:

Thanks for your recount of my lurking years. :-)

> Now, for those who were not there at that time: Ovidiu's proposal was 
> *NOT* accepted happily. For the most part, it was not understood until 
> several months later. Any mind-bending change of direction is, at 
> first, perceived as creating instability.

I happen to like Ugo's idea to start from scratch with a new 
implementation of Cocoon.

> Ugo (like many others, myself included) is sick of being scared with 
> the complexity of cocoon's code, which strongly reduced his ability to 
> improve on it. His "extreme programming" approach is rather evident: 
> do the simplest thing that can possibly work.

Isn't that also what a user would expect from a framework: a simple 
thing which just works?

> If Cocoon is what it is today, it's not because we remained where we 
> were, but because we allowed people to innovate internally and with an 
> open and friendly attitude and we "guided" our user base in new 
> directions and never failed to provide them a better environment then 
> before.

IMHO, simplicity has to do with predictability. XML grammars have this, 
scripting languages don't. While the use of a non-XML (scripting?) 
grammar for the site/flowmap might be clever, it might reduce the 
predictability. Too much magic for my poor brains. And even XML happens 
to be abused at times.

I figure Ugo picked Groovy because it is cool. (I'm not a language 
expert, but JavaScript seems cool enough already, and a tad less 
immature and trendy than Groovy.) My main concern however is that the 
separation between pipeline definitions and processing flow is what 
differentiates Cocoon from many other frameworks, yet this is still 
something that our users are only beginning to pick up. Many people are 
still stuck with monstrous sitemaps using all kinds of 
action/inputmodule/transformer chains - and I don't know whether they 
will be helped with an even more flexible configuration mechanism.


Steven Noels                  
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at  
stevenn at                stevenn at

View raw message