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From Steven Noels <>
Subject Re: The Butterfly Manifesto (was Re: [RT] Spring+JMX == Real Blocks?)
Date Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:59:11 GMT
On 22 Jul 2004, at 21:52, Sylvain Wallez wrote:

> My opinion is that what refrains us to move is that the container
> contract is deeply engraved in every component in our code base.
> Whatever solution we choose, we must take greate care to hide as much 
> as
> possible the chosen container in the lower levels layers of the Cocoon
> system. Higher level layers, those hosting user-written components,
> should be POJOs, using whatever IoC type 2/3 container best suits our 
> needs.
> Now what should be that container? I share your fears about "foreign"
> containers. Avalon already did much harm, and it is inside the ASF.

(playing the ball, not the man, as always shooting in diverse 

I've been skimreading several megabytes of rather diverse ASF mailing 
lists upon my return from a bliss-like holiday, and I cannot refrain 
myself from thinking that the term "Avalon harm" is being coined these 
days as some sort of "see?" argument in a whole lot of discussions, but 
most of the time not related at all to technical matters (compared with 
Ugo's and other folks' purely technical interest in Spring).

I'm the King of Pet Peeves, but I think we shouldn't let every single 
discussion evolve into a "what the ASF thinks is good for itself == its 
users", which becomes patronizing very fast. Folks have vested opinions 
about component containers, but that shouldn't make them afraid to 
witness the evident opportunity of a from-scratch rewrite, with a 
shortcut path by using an outside component framework rather than 
thinking we need something very special. I hope Ugo and his sorry job 
situation endure in many more nice RTs. :-)

I for myself think these kind of discussions might finally evolve into 
a real future of Cocoon... while the community is great at always, we 
have been wrestling with a code/installed base that frightens people to 
contribute anything but minor tweaks and patches, and frankly, we 
haven't been very innovative at all in the post-flow era - tossing the 
blocks ball around as if we all hope that somebody else is interested 
enough to tackle it instead.

Besides, I think we should be modest and prudent in our judgement of 
outside-ASF OSS projects. I had my share of live Spring advocacy in the 
past few months, and they seem to be bright and nice folks IMHO.

Please mind that my state of mind is definitely bliss-like ATM - blame 
it on the French sun.

Steven Noels                  
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at  
stevenn at                stevenn at

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