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From leo leonid <>
Subject Re: OT: [RT] Use of flowscript or the pyramid of contracts
Date Mon, 19 Apr 2004 15:35:17 GMT

On Apr 19, 2004, at 4:42 PM, Leon Widdershoven wrote:

> Just curious (also:),
> how much work is it to set up for a given database?
> Leon

I've been playing with those tools for about a week, then I was ready 
to start redesigning/refaktoring my old webapps, replacing former ESQL- 
and ScriptableConnection solutions with OR Mapping. OK, admitted, this 
seems not to be a very fast start, but you must consider that I'm 
rather a graphic designer than a programmer, and I'm not just new to DB 
stuff, I'm new to almost every technology involved, even new to java. 
The documentation and samples provided with that framework are useful, 
describing various kinds of connections and scenarios.


> leo leonid wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> just curious, did ever someone in cocoonland, except me, use the 
>> SQL-Maps and DAO-Framework from ibatis ( ). This is 
>> from where Chris borrowed the Petstore sample, that he ported to 
>> flow. And that was the simple reason why I hit upon these tools, that 
>> I use since, contently.
>> I never tried something similar before and since, so I can't rate it, 
>> or even compare it, with the tools you use (Hibernate OJB,..)  so, 
>> comments would be very appreciated.
>> For training with these tools, I half backported the petstore flow 
>> sample, so that it uses flow only for controller things, but leaving 
>> all business logic under the responsibility of SQL-Maps/DAO. If there 
>> is an interest, I could finish and contribute this alternative 
>> petstore sample.
>> /leo
>> On Apr 19, 2004, at 1:54 PM, Leon Widdershoven wrote:
>>> I had a task to write a web interface to a table with 300
>>> columns. The column names were still in flux.
>>> I really did not feel to write 300 elaborate column definitions.
>>> XML is very readable, but it was too verbose for me at the time.
>>> And as you say, it looks a very daunting task and that's what
>>> most starting users probably think. And if they, because of that,
>>> start with xsp and esql (which admittedly is very easy) the
>>> going forth to yet another language and framework can be
>>> inconvenient. Especially when you get paid to write applications,
>>> not learn frameworks:)
>>> But I'm glad to hear that Hibernate is quite easy to start with.
>>> The moment I get some time off I will certainly jump in the
>>> deep and try to survive:)
>>> Leon
>>> Leszek Gawron wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2004 at 12:32:38PM +0200, Leon Widdershoven wrote:
>>>>> To me, hibernate is overkill and yet another thing to manage. The
>>>>> advantage of esql is that it is simple, and has a single layer 
>>>>> access
>>>>> to the database.
>>>>> Hibernate is more complicated to set up, and then has to be 
>>>>> maintained.
>>>>> If you use plain SQL, only the queries have to be maintained. If 
>>>>> you
>>>>> use hibernate, it also has to be maintained.
>>>>> For plain old statements like select * from foo where 
>>>>> bla=<xsp:request.../>
>>>>> it's just overkill to me.
>>>>> I do think hibernate is very good - for advanced usage. I think it
>>>>> is a shame that people are forced to either use xsp or use plain
>>>>> java.sql access to the database in flowscript.
>>>> You are not right. Setting up hibernate and writing first 
>>>> application
>>>> consisting of 5 tables took me 1 hour. For two weeks I been 
>>>> gathering strength
>>>> to do that because I've been as scared as you are :)
>>>>     lg

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