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From Alan <>
Subject Re: Momento and Cocoon [was Re: Jisp 3.0 moved to GPL licence]
Date Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:04:08 GMT
Responding now after having spent a week in California and a week
    working on my web site ( Announcing Momento
    created a communication burden for me that I am learning how to
    shoulder, after a little more work on my web site, I ought to be
    able to return to Momento coding.

    Cocoon is a large application. I'm primarily familiar with
    Cocoon output: pipelines. I'm also familiar with XSLT. 

    I know nothing of Cocoon internals, and very little about Flow
    and CFroms. Although I look forward to learning about both,
    the following comments are going to be based on some wild,
    unfounded assumptions about Cocoon.

* Daniel Fagerstrom <> [2004-02-23 15:21]:
> Upayavira wrote:
> >Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> >>From: Alan
> >>>Working on it. As noted, I have JAXP implemented and SAX interface
> >>>   to XUpdate. I have APIs. I am going to start working on services
> >>>   next.
> >>>      A Cocoon generator that takes a Momento data source and an XSLT
> >>>   transform would be a start.
> >>>
> >>>   I'm not sure how to get information into Momento via Cocoon. I'm
> >>>   thinking about some sort of Woody binding, but that goes beyond
> >>>   my current understanding of Cocoon.

> >>speaking without following this thread closly: What about implementing 
> >>a Momento source?

> >Yup. Alan, take a look at the XMLDBSource and XMLDBSourceFactory. I 
> >think you'll find them reasonably similar to what you might want to do 
> >(in src/blocks/xmldb/java/org/apache/cocoon/components/source/impl)

> >If you implemented a MomentoSource, and made it implement 
> >ModifiableSource, then you would be able to read/write from within 
> >Cocoon. With this, you would be able to use Woody's binding 
> >functionality to bind forms directly to Momento data.

I really want to see Momento work with CForms.

> >You could also do something like the XMLDBTransformer to allow updates 
> >(src/blocks/xmldb/java/org/apache/cocoon/transformation/ 

> >[NB. with an XML:DB interface to Momento, you wouldn't need to do 
> >anything to interface to Cocoon].

Isn't XML:DB deadish?

    I wrote Momento because at the time Xindice was zero traffic,
    dbXML was propietory, eXist wouldn't install with Cocoon, and
    the XML::DB site hadn't been updated in two years. 

    Also, It doesn't look the like it will make the most of Momento.
    I don't like the collections concept, I much prefer one big
    Still an XML:DB interface shouldn't be two difficult to implement.

--- In response to  Mr. Fagerstrom --- 

> Pseudo protocol
> ===============

> In Cocoon (or actually Avalon Excalibur), we have a generalization of 
> protocols,, called pseudo protocol 
> org.apache.excalibur.source.Source, there are also various extensions of 
> Source like ModifiableSource, TraversableSource among others. Pseudo 
> protocols are an excelent way of separating the location of data with 
> what to do with it. If you package a data source as a pseudo protocol 
> you can access it by using its URL, e.g. 
> momento://dbpath/collection#xpath(foo/bar), through Cocoons source 
> resolver. This makes it possible to use sources for ala src attributes 
> in the sitemap, the document function in XSLT and XQuery, hrefs in the 
> [X|C]IncludeTransformer, in the SourceWritingTransformer and within 
> flowscripts.

> A MomentoSource would thus give a lot of flexibility in using Momento in 
> Cocoon. Especially if it allows using XPath(2.0) in the URLs and if it 
> is a modifyable source.

Since Momento is pageable, and multi-threaded, you should be able to
    yank stuff out of Momento from the sitemap, maybe dumping it
    into your pipeline, without parsing a document.

    When a Momento URL resolves, it will not require a document to
    be loaded an parsed, so it means that thinks like XLink or
    XPointer will not suffer that performance hit I read about.

    In implementing XLink or XPointer (or whatever) one could read
    documents into Momento as an intermediate, caching step.

> ====

> A MomentoSource would also give a good way to use Momento together with 
> XSLT and XQuery in Cocoon. Here we need to extend the ordinary use of 
> sources somewhat, let me explain:

> The Source interface provides a getInputStream method, in Cocoon some 
> Sources implements org.apache.excalibur.xml.sax.XMLizable that provides 
> a toSAX method as well. SAX or Streams are probably not the most 
> efficient way to communicate with an XML db, so to make the pseudo 
> protocol idea usable together with Momento, we should provide a way to 
> get a DOM structure from a pseudo protocol. This could be done by 
> introducing a new interface:

> interface DOMizable {
>    org.w3c.domNode getNode();
> }

Momento, with Cocoon in mind, lends itself to streaming.

Momento would readily support a read-only W3 DOM, but a read write
    W3 DOM is quite ugly.
    W3 DOM lets you to create inconsistant documents, with is not in
    keeping with the C in ACID. (Examples if you want them.) There
    is no way to specify the start and end of an atomic transcation
    through the DOM API.

Momento uses XUpdate since one can specify a set of modifications,
    and Momento can process those modifications as an atomic
    transcation. XUpdate expresses all document modifications, and
    does so declaratively. Momento can then make logic of you

    In a pipeline, XML input can be transformed into XUpdate
    statement. I suppose one could an XUpdate using JXTemplate from
    Flow as well.

    XUpdate is really the method of choice for updating Momento.
    Both XUpdate and SAX input are a good way to get data into

I don't know if you and I talking about the same thing here, but
    the sight of org.w3c.domNode leaves me cold. It is a nice
    in-memory interface, but a poor interface for persistence.

    If W3 DOM were the way to modify a Momento document, the
    application developer would have to be prepared to catch all
    kinda hel.., er, exceptions, since there are a bunch of stupid
    things that Momento won't allow.

> or something similar. If the MomentoSource implements DOMizable, we have 
> direct access to nodes in the XML db.

> Now we are prepared to connect Momento to XSLT. In Cocoon we can use 
> Saxon through the org.apache.cocoon.transformation.TraxTransformer, you 
> just need to change cocoon.xconf a little bit to use Saxon instead of 
> Xalan. There is also a TraxGenerator in the scratchpad that could be 
> used with some small modifications.

Momento connects to XSLT using a Saxon NodeInfo interface. It could
    connect to Xalan just as easily (through read-only W3 DOM?).

> I would guess that Momento mainly would be accessed through the document 
> function in XSLT and XQuery. Saxon use JAXP 1.1 as external API to the 
> transformerand the URLs in the document functions are resolved by using 
> an implementation of javax.xml.transform.URIResolver that is provided by 
> the TraxTransformer.

The above is somewhat confusing for me. Momento does support the
    JAXP API. XUpdate is implemented as a SAX filter. It seems like
    Momento would work nicely in as a source, sink, or filter for
    SAX events.
    I've imagined that a pipeline would start with a Momento
    document and an XSLT trasform or XQuery query.

    Something along these lines:
        <map:match pattern="index.html">
          <map:generate type="momento" src=""
          <map:transform type="xslt" src="document-to-web.xslt"/>
          <map:serialize type="html"/>

    (It is easier for me to express myself as a Cocoon user.)

> The implementation of the URIResolver that is used is 
> org.apache.excalibur.xml.xslt.XSLTProcessorImpl in its current 
> incarnation it uses the exclaibur source resolver to get the source and 
> then it returns a For use with 
> Momento we need an implemetation of URIResolver that checks if the the 
> source is DOMIzable and in that case returns a 
> javax.xml.transform.dom.DOMSource instead. This can be done by extending 
> the excalibur XSLTProcessorImpl and change the XSLTProcessor in 
> cocoon.xconf.

Okay, at this point I think the problem might be that you are

        Momento == DOM

    Where as I think:

      |           |          |        |        |
    W3 DOM      Saxon       SAX     Xalan   XUpdate

> XQuery
> ======

> XQuery in Saxon use a propertary api, (there are no standard in this 
> area yet). So we need a specialized SaxonXQueryGenerator. Saxon use the 
> JAXP URIResolver for XQuery also, so the above described mechanisms can 
> be used here as well. Unfortionatly Saxon is MPL 1.0 that is not 
> compatible with ASL, so we cannot have Saxon as a part of Cocoon :(

I am very interested in seeing XQuery become a a first class citizen
    in Cocoon. If Saxon cannot be part of Cocoon and somehow Momento
    can be part of Cocoon, it might be enough to make Saxon pluggable.

    I'm really enjoying working with Saxon.

>                               --- o0o ---

> Sorry for all the technical details ;)

Thank you for all the technical details.

> See the thread: [RT] the quest for the perfect template language
> for a long
> disussion around related ideas.

Long indeed. I'll have to find time to read this. Thank you.

Alan / /
    aim/yim: alanengrm - icq: 228631855 - msn:

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