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Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:07:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cocoon website outdated.
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <agallardo@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>
To: <dev@cocoon.apache.org>
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Hi:

The news page at: http://cocoon.apache.org/news/index.html
It does not show there is a 2.1.2 release!

I will be glad to update all the site, but since I dont know the mechanics
to update the site. I prefer to don't touch it at all.

It would be a good idea to show how to do that. I know there is a
"cocon-site" and a "cocoon-2.1" in the CVS, but don't know where the
forrest source to generate the site really resides. I also search on
maillist and nowhere is info about that.

If I assume the lastest sources are at "cocoon-2.1", then the site is
really outdated compared with what there is. There are many changes in
documentation and others pages in cocoon-2.1 that are not showed to the
average user. Now I understand posts from some users telling us there is
no documentation. Yes, It is, but in the distribution.

People like me (too lazy), first prefer to read some docs in the website
before download and give a try. If this is true, then we are losing
potential users. I know you can tell me: "We don't need users" or similars
assertion. At the end this is not the point of the discusion.

Some other outdated pages I saw are:

http://cocoon.apache.org/changes.html
http://cocoon.apache.org/history.html
http://cocoon.apache.org/whoweare.html
http://cocoon.apache.org/news/index.html

Mainly, there are still the old site for 1.0 and 2.0. I understand the
nostalgia for the old good times. ;) But I think we can delete the old
site or update it or better move the old site to "Cocoon classics site".
That way we can avoid current problems as some contradictory statements.
For example:

Check the definition of what is cocoon in 1.0: http://cocoon.apache.org/1.x/
vs. what is written here: http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/

This is a total diference! Then what is cocoon at all?

I think similar conflicts are there in the site. I think it is problematic
for some people understand what cocoon is at all. We are not stating clear
what is Cocoon! References can be taken from both since they are oficial
statements from the Cocoon project.

The worst case is if a users check definitions at: 1.0 and 2.1 and said:
"Well, I prefer 1.0, because I need a publisher framework. I don't want
2.1, because it is a webapp framework".... and we are not supporting more
1.0. Poor potential user.

I know this is a very hard work to be done to reorganize the website. I
propose to create an old release menu where this old sites can reside (if
we choosed to saved it for the history).

2. WHAT WE NEED?

I saw the lastest post from Carsten that shows us a lack in updating the
website:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=106508923825397&w=2

That show we need a better publishing mechanism. I don't try to said
forrest is bad here. I love forrest. The answer can be a RFE to forrest to
be able to update just the changed HTML files. I don't know is this is
posible at all, but by the the generated cocoon site with 62.6 MB, we saw:

1.0 site: 1.2 MB
2.0 site: 22.9 MB
2.1 site: 36.7 MB

If we assume:
1-We are not changing at all the old sites.
2-The site surely will grow, because we are documenting the project.
3-The 2.1 will become "historic" with the next 2.2 release. Adding more
almost 37 MB to "unchanged files".

Then we need to:
1-Avoid reposting the same files over and over.
2-Allow committers update just the changed files easily. That way the site
will be more dynamic than it is right now.

I just tried to show some of the problems we have with the Cocoon website
and what we can do to solve this. This is an open discussion. Please
comments what we can do in this area.

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo