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From "Antonio Gallardo" <>
Subject Re: Open support vrs. Company support (long!)
Date Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:22:59 GMT
Tony Collen dijo:
> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>> Hi:
>> I want to point out what really means Free Maillist Support.
>> At first sight when we said Cocoon has support trought free maillist,
>> it seems like it is less than Company Support. Many of us saw this as
>> a lack instead of a feature, just before we make the first taste of
>> the Cocoon's free support feature.
>>>>From my point of view Open support means:
> <snip/>
> I didn't have any specific replies because it's all good, so I'll add
> some more thoughts, slightly on the "Devil's Advocate" side of things.
> When is commercial (or 'professional') support desired, compared to the
> "free" kind?

Please excuse, I dont found the right word (english is not my main or
mother language). I meant commercial support as you posted. But I tried to
point out that they showed this as a feature of OXF as opposite to the
type of support that Cocoon mail list offer.

Indeed I know there are other companies providing commercial support for
Cocoon. I know they are doing his work well.

> I'm sure the members of Orixo can answer this one :)  It's a tough one
> though.  The notion of professional support is relative, since many of
> us are not here as a result of our jobs (me, for instance).  Sure, we're
>  all professionals in one way or another, but I'll limit my definition
> to  refer to people who are directly supporting Cocoon for money.

OK. I got your point. I wrote before about I didn't foudn the right word.

> There are some benefits, as far as I can see, to wanting commercial
> support over the free kind.  I don't speak of these from experience, so
> I could be way off base here.
> Professional support as an interface or hub into The Community.

If you need someone to speak for you, then you need better to contract a
"speaker" instead. :)

> Ideally, the company providing commercial support is active in the
> Cocoon Community, because otherwise they clearly wouldn't have their
> pulse on the project.

>  If a company decides they want to use Cocoon, it
>  may be beneficial for them to hire a company to do the work for them
> (outsourcing), or at least be able to steer them in the right direction
> (consulting).

This are other areas (outsourcing and consulting). I know this can be
considered support. Anyway cocoon already has this.

> The professional supporter can guide the client, getting
> them up to base and keeping them on the cutting edge of changes.  The
> company could also hire Cocoon consultants to train employees about the
> basics, and teach them the ropes.
> There *are* quiet times on the list, mainly when Europe is asleep :)

Partially agree. I know Europe is the land of many of the members of the
Cocoon community, but you cannot forget there are people from Australia,
Japan and America (from Canada to Argentina) that are part of this list.
The  have this kind of support? I think Cocoon mail list does not sleep at
all. See the archives and you will see there are post no matter the time
or day.

How many time you wrote to a company and they answer you the next
bussiness day (sometimes this means more than 48 hours). I am not just
talking about the company that own OXF I try to target a general

> When people in Europe are going to bed, or leaving work and turning off
> their computers, lots of us here in the US are just finishing lunch.
> That's still half a day!  Having an experienced Cocoon contact a phone
> call away (and in your timezone) could be very beneficial, especially
> when something Goes Bad(tm).

I agree. But not always is the case in comercial support.

> Additionally, the Professional Supporter has also been active on the
> mailing lists, and possibly has contacts in other places, such as other
> projects (Tomcat, or Avalon, for instance), or in other local networks
> such as user groups.  This reinforces the idea of the Commercial Cocoon
> Supporter as a hub of knowledge.

Out of topic. I wrote about above. I am not against this.

> Antonio had some good examples, let me see if I can come up with some
> counterexampes.  Keep in mind I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate and
> I'm not really complaining :)
>> 1- Faster response time.
> Many companies can't afford to wait overnight for a problem to be
> solved.  Indeed, the mail list is fast, but only when everybody is
> awake.

If you have people that follow the maillist in Asia, Australia, Europe and
America, then when the list sleep?
>> 2- Answers include diferents approach to solve the same problem:
> I agree, I don't really have a counterexample, except for having a
> professional supporter post onto the list (after exhausting their other
> resources [themselves]), "My client, ABC Inc. is needs to get A and B
> done, but we can't do it this way because &excuse;  I'm stuck, does
> anybody else have ideas?"  Again, this isn't really a counterexample,
> but it shows that the professional supporter could be a good contact
> into getting a problem solved.

Better hire a person that will write for you. It is cheaper and is
commonly called a secretary. :)

>> 3- Good knowledge database:
> Yes, but there's lots of effort involved in digging through a few years
> of mail archives, or learning the intricacies of Avalon, digging through
>  the existing docs, etc.

Sorry, But I really think that to use Cocoon you does not need to take
care of Avalon. I wrote my first Cocoon application without see any Avalon
page at all.

I am not "too smart", this is just another Cocoon feature. :)

> The idea of providing commercial support for Cocoon interests me
> greatly, because it's something I'd like to eventually do.

Well, this is another history.... outsourcing and consultancy these are
other areas.

> I'm not sure
>  if companies here in the US are even willing to hire "expensive"
> consultants anymore, as opposed to just hiring somebody in-house.  It
> would be a fun experiment though.
> Currently on there are exactly 8 jobs listed (in the US) in
> which "Cocoon" is a keywords.  They are mainly located on the east and
> west coasts.  The fact that there are so few job listings is a mixed
> blessing, one, because it makes it hard to get a job doing Cocoon work.

Well, this is the fruit of the community. The inductry is really showing
interest in Cocoon. Thanks for tell us about this important notice :)

>   The good part is that this leads me to believe there is a shortage of
> people knowledgeable enough to work with Cocoon full-time, which tends
> to be good for those of us who can fill an admittedly small niche.


All in all, I think this kind of dicussion are good enough for us. :)

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo.

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