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From "Roger I Martin PhD" <>
Subject Re: OXF rebuttal
Date Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:16:09 GMT
Hi Erik,

I don't see any "In the works" or "Upcoming" on the Cocoon column of the

As far as what Cocoon "recommends", "does not clearly encourage", sheesh,
I've got the Cocoon source code; I can do anything I want.  Where Cocoon
documentation "is minimal"; remember I've got the source code.  Cocoon
doesn't discourage me from doing anything.

cocoon supports proprietary actions and XSP
Say what?

cocoon supports proprietary actions and XSP
How are you planning to convince an intelligent audience that JSP is
superior to XSP when XSP extends the concept of JSP from just html to all
xml documents?

The Cocoon sitemap was initially designed to handle linear pipelines
according to a generation / transformation / serialization pattern suited
for Web publishing. This initial limitation has been lifted and Cocoon now
supports operating independently from a Servlet container.
Can be rewritten
How the first version was designed is immaterial even to the biased
comparison your making with Cocoon version 2.1.

Your examples are painfully slow, tiny and unattractive at your site.
What's choking it? Validation? The xslt2 one doesn't work. Most of them are
based on sourceforge and other .org code bases where I can go and get better
examples and plug them into other publishing frameworks.

Your mailing list is smaller than tiny; more like puny.  You average about
38k of gzipped characters/month while Cocoon averages 831k of gzipped
characters/month just for their users list.  Many users are on the dev list
too.  These simple statistics belie your biased comparison.

You should put it at the top that you can't compare to open source because
your not and that you only support JSP and aren't anywhere close to
implementing XSP support(hint: you can get the source code from Cocoon to
get a start:-).  I'm part of Cocoon's quality assurance and robustness
team(world-wide users who can peek into the source code) while you probably
have just a handfull in an internal department.  When Cocoon hits an
exception, I can go right to the line of code and fix it myself instead of
waiting for the "professional help" to do it.  This stuff is not rocket
science. I cannot believe that things perform as well as the left side of
your comparison would have me believe.

Why don't you note where your documentation is barely existent?  At least
with Cocoon there is the source code.  On your web site your documents
appear to be fulfilling the requirement of existence for getting to market
rather than being full of real-world application meat.

I recommend you remove this pseudo-comparison/marketing page because it does
not "sell" -- what are you trying to sell?  Your going to have a
hell-of-a-time upkeeping this page.  There are so many new things happening
with Cocoon that you need to extend your list and proclaim that OXF
implementation is "No" and Cocoon is "In the works".  You appear to be a
small time blogger picking on a well-read blogger in his/her comment
sections just to increase your hits and get noticed. That is why it won't
sell.  On the other hand people who get to your site some other way will
find out about Cocoon thru this pseudo-comparison and "zap" you lost a
customer(For convenience you could provide a link).  The last thing you ever
want people coming to your web-site to know is the word Cocoon.

Your picking a tough market (IT developers).  We're a stingy bunch:-)  I
don't even begin to look at something that requires me to fill out marketing
forms just to learn about it.  Wrong customer.  What you want is customers
with lots of money who know nothing about software ; just want something
done.  This is what the open source crowd has realized and hence open
source.  Some things are beyond one company to achieve in one life time.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Erik Bruchez" <>
To: "Gianugo Rabellino" <>
Cc: <>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: OXF rebuttal

> Dear Gianugo,
> We appreciate your comments about our OXF / Cocoon comparison
> matrix. We have posted an update to reflect most of them:
> A few additional comments below:
> 1. Professional Support
>     1. We clearly did not mean that Cocoon does not have free
>     support. 2. The main idea we wanted to convey is that the
>     day-to-day developers of OXF are also the people who provide
>     professional support for OXF. It looks like we were unfair to
>     Cocoon by not mentioning that professional support is also
>     available for Cocoon. The matrix has been updated to reflect this
>     better.
> 2. XML Validation and XPointer support
>     In OXF, these are feature of the pipeline language itself. The
>     validation feature is not about validation at parsing time (which
>     is clearly supported by XML parsers) but about being able to
>     validate each input and output of each component in a SAX pipeline
>     with a Relax NG or W3C Schema. AFAWK this is not possible with
>     Cocoon. The matrix has been updated to reflect this better.
> 3. J2EE Datasources
>     The Cocoon documentation on the subject seems to be lacking. We
>     have removed this item from the comparison. The lack of
>     documentation also seems to affect J2EE authentication and JSP
>     integration.
> 4. Tomcat / JSP
>     There used to be a JSP Generator based on Tomcat's Jasper
>     engine. Based on your comment, it looks like this way of calling
>     JSP pages is obsolete.
> 5. EJB
>     This regards the possibility to call EJBs from a pipeline without
>     writing any Java code. The matrix has been updated to reflect this
>     better.
> Regards,
> -Erik

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