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From "Robert Simmons" <robert.simm...@norcom.de>
Subject Re: Porting Cocoon Logging to Log4j - Proposal and Discussion
Date Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:46:32 GMT
I wasnt accusing anyone of being childish. I wish you wouldnt put words in
my mouth. I merely meant that the demands of a business environment are
quite different then the demands of non-business environments. Many open
source projects have yet to bridge this gulf and only a few have done it
sucessfully (apache web server, ant, log4j, tomcat, jboss). For example, the
decision to NOT distribute a binary build of cocoon is a good example of
going in the opposite direction of business. Many business consultants are
not interested in building source, but rather using the product as is.

I wasnt insulting anyone and i appologize if it sounded like that. However,
we have to recognize that Cocoon, although great,  has some shortfalls when
it comes to business applications.

-- Robert

"Gianugo Rabellino" <gianugo@apache.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3F4DDA9C.30001@apache.org...
> Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> >>>Actually, I was proposign the removal of the avalon logging mechanism
> >>>completely.
> >>
> >>You'll have to provide a very good technical reason for that, much more
> >>than "I like Log4J better" or "Log4J is cool". Consider that:
> >
> >
> > How about the fact that multiple layers of logging exacerbate
performance
> > problems intrinsic to logging. Also how about the fact that Log4j is
faster
> > and far more powerful and flexible in production environments where you
may
> > want logging to go to a specific server. Also how about the fact that
most
> > other java products that log use log4j and very very few use avalon
logging.
>
> All nice & dandy, but I'd like to see some figures to prove your
> statements: what does "faster" actually mean? Are there any benchmarks
> around? So far the only problem you outlined was the multi-layer
> performance hit. Now, I can't speak for the actual Log4J avalon adapter
> performance, but:
>
> 1. are you sure that you can't achieve the same result with logkit? I'm
> succesfully logging to a remote server ATM using syslog, and I have no
> problems with it;
>
> 2. JMS logging and performance concerns are oxymorons. Multi layered
> logging would be a breeze compared to what it takes to build and send a
> JMS message;
>
> 3. A production Cocoon does not log much. If you raise the log level to
> WARN (or even INFO), you won't get so much logging to be concerned about
> performance. Since (almost) every log statament is wrapped if
> is*Enabled() methods, you will never hit the multilayer performance issue.
>
>
> > I think about the business applications of cocoon which are far
different
> > than the open source programming aspects.
>
> >  Avalon is as old as AWT and I think just as outdated.
>
> These two statements are overly aggressive and somehow insulting. We do
> business with Cocoon, and most of us have experience with large sites
> and serious logging needs. Accusing the Cocoon and Avalon committers of
> being childish open source kiddies playing with their toy and not being
> innovative is not a good way to sell your point.
>
> > welcome. Let me be skeptical, though. :-)
> >
> >
> > Skeptical is good as long as it doesnt change into stubborness.
>
> Lets make a deal and avoid both stubborness and aggressive attitude
> then. I would suggest you to discuss the Log4J vs. Logkit implementation
> issues on the proper lists and come back here with more evidence. You
> might even convince the Avalon guys to switch to Logkit...
>
> Ciao,
>
>
> -- 
> Gianugo Rabellino
> Pro-netics s.r.l. -  http://www.pro-netics.com
> Orixo, the XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
>      (Now blogging at: http://blogs.cocoondev.org/gianugo/)
>
>




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