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From Steven Noels <>
Subject Re: [RT] Improving Sitemap and Flowscript
Date Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:58:19 GMT
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> One day I hope the anti-flow/pro-action people will simply stop sneaking 
> doubts and come up with real arguments on why we shouldn't heavily bet 
> on the flow.

I thought we were done with this balkanization thing, didn't we? I for 
one have just finished my first tiny flow-based application, and while I 
still find the edge layer where Java & Javascript meet each other quite 
murky, I had good fun while hacking on it. It's not about just black & 
white, Stefano.

What I would like to see, even if some of it might be nonsense, is a 
seriously integrated scripting environment to code the behaviour of a 
webapp, and flowscript is a nice way to start exploring that concept. 
With serious, I mean there should be a way to work with persistency, 
security, and back-end business logic without this stupid Packages 
thing, and, because of the continuous bouncing back & forward between 
Java and JS, not having to worry about the automagic typecasting that 
happens on the border between Java & Javascript.

Syntax-wise, I have about the same problem with JS as I have with Java, 
but that's because I find Python a tad more readible. There's people 
around here that would rather like to code flow in real Java, with 
dynamic recompilation and all that. There's room for diversity, and we 
should exploit that. Even Apples hooks in with the flow at some point. 
<aside>And Apples doesn't mean anything more to me than a personal 
adventure of a guy I like, on the same level of appreciation that Dywel 
has in my mind: nothing wrong with it, but where's the community?</aside>

We should work on serious JS-wrapping of services typically used in 
webapps, and extensive Avalonization of existing Cocoon code can help 
with that. There should be formalization of the border area between Java 
& JS, or we will kill ourselves with recurring user questions about the 
lack of explicit semantics & casting.

Over time, I still hope that some Jython guru will pop up and make all 
this also possible using a language I've come to appreciate above JS, 
but that's entirely IMHO.

Of course, if we start from a discours of "either you're with us, or 
you're against us", well, all this might take a long time to happen. As 
much as you repeatedly come back on this so-called split between pro and 
contra, I'm quite sure that you are currently misguiding yourself (and 
through such remarks, also this community) about this so-called 
polarization. For myself, I started hating overweight sitemaps a long 
time ago. I'm also pretty sure some of the old action-farts will be 
amongst the people who, eventually, will make sure flowscript reaches 
the same level of robustness, documentation and user support that the 
'old stuff' already has.

Oh, and I did read the rest of your mail, and you were right about AAA, 
interceptors and flow. I understand now. Thanks for your repeated 
efforts in educating the clueless. ;-D


Steven Noels                  
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at  
stevenn at                stevenn at

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