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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: Regarding Excalibur XMLUtil and Store
Date Tue, 13 May 2003 19:21:45 GMT
on 5/13/03 11:03 AM Carsten Ziegeler wrote:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote
>>I thought it was obvious that community around code is an important
>>thing for an open source project. I guess it's still not that obvious.
> At least for me it's obvious :)

Glad to see that.

> I agree that the community for those components is very small, but it's
> not automatically bigger because the components have moved back to Cocoon.

Don't underestimate the power of CVS commits oversight. CVS feeding back
information on what's going on on the code is probably one of the most
important catalyst for community building.

Nicola suggests me to learn what a mail filter is, but I think people
are lazy and I like work to make it easier for them to work on
something, not harder. Yes, a mail filter is not rocket science, but it
strikes as odd to have to remove all that noise when you wouldn't have
to do so here.

> Why should people that currently don't care about those components care
> only because the code lies somewhere else?

Ok, look: I don't give a damn where the code lies on CVS. I care about
community oversight more than anything else. I don't even care about
commit access because I'm sure the avalon people will give immediate
access to those cocoon committers who show interest in participating there.

but I wish the cvs diffs on those modules were sent *here* on cocoon-dev
instead that on a list where no cocoon developer is subscribed.

*this* is my point.

> Perhaps the chance is bigger that a community will be built if the
> components are in Cocoon, but that's not for sure.

I would bet on it. Why? well, because itches develop more in a community
of people that cares about the technology uses.

> <half joke>
> With the same reasons, we could move avalon and the container implementation
> to Cocoon as well, because we care most of the development (especially
> when you think of the real blocks.

I'm not joking when I consider writing the cocoon block-aware container
from scratch without touching avalon code *exactly* to route around the
avalon community fragmentation problems.

> </half joke>
>>I aknowledge the two -1 but I will continue to think that any part that
>>cocoon is based on which is not backed up by a community is a potential
>>harm in the long run.
> Agreed.
>>And no, ignoring the issue won't make it go away.
> Yes, but I think that building up the community in Avalon is the "correct"
> way to try.

I tried several times and I failed and I don't see indications that the
political problems will go away in the near future. Being one of the
original proponents and designers of Avalon, it's sad to admit so, but
it's the way it is.

But, just curious: is there any action going on right now to build a
community around those components?

> I think we all agree that usually or in theory common components should be
> somewhere in Avalon. So I guess this answers the question where the
> components
> belong.

I'm beginning to challenge deeply that notion in my head. Code should be
where the community cares, not where it makes sense architecturally.

This said, I'm *dead serious* when I say that I'm considering writing my
own container from scratch for Cocoon 2.2 instead of using any
avalon-based one, even if it would be make perfect sense from a purely
technical point of view.

I'm also aware this might create friction between the two projects. But
maybe this will also shake them up a little. We'll see when the time of
that comes.

> That those components don't have a real community is a different point and
> can imho not be solved by moving them back to Cocoon.

I'm tired of debating this. Like all avalon things, they become
religious and end up in personal deadlocks.

I agree: let's move on to more important things.


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