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From Sylvain Wallez <>
Subject Re: [ANN] XMLForm as a standalone servlet toolkit
Date Sat, 29 Mar 2003 09:56:26 GMT
ivelin wrote:

>>That is not the issue. We mean that a "community" member
>>would discuss any perceived issue with their peers. You did
>>not provide cocoon-dev with feedback or notify about a problem.
>Over the last few months I have asked multiple times when is 2.1 going to be
>labeled Alpha.
>Maybe you did not follow my messages.
>When I indicated the problem with the ever moving and always about to be
>ready HEAD,
>Sylvain Walez told me to hush, because I was ruining the good spirit of the

Are you referring to ?

I never told you to hush, but said that, rather than complaining about 
"others" having broken "your" XMLForm "contribution", you could also get 
your hands dirty and help fix it or at least give constructive comments. 
The community I was referring to is Avalon, which has been hit so hard 
by code ownership problems. And we, Cocoon community, don't want to see 
this happen here.

Also, you asked several times "when will 2.1 be released" ? If this is 
an itch that scratches you, then why not - again - getting your hands 
dirty, if not on code, at least on a task schedule or some proposals ?

An OSS community is a loose group that is driven by the desires and 
needs of its members. You cannot expect others to do something for you 
unless then find some interest in it. And complaining is not the right 
way to gain people's interest.

And now you tell us that many people asked you privately about XMLForm. 
Have you read Cocoon's "Who we are" page ? It says : "We ask that you 
please do not send us emails privately asking for support. We are 
non-paid volunteers who help out with the project and we do not 
necessarily have the time or energy to help people on an individual 
basis. Instead, we have setup mailing lists which often contain hundreds 
of individuals who will help answer detailed requests for help. The 
benefit of using mailing lists over private communication is that it is 
a shared resource where others can also learn from common mistakes and 
as a community we all grow together."

Why haven't you mentioned the problems raised by the private emails you 
received to the list ? We could have solved them _together_.

>>>>At least *I* honstely don't see a good reason for XMLForm
>>>>becoming it's own Apache project - sorry.
>>>Others disagree with you.
>>>I have been asked numerous times via private emails, if it
>>>can be used independently for smaller projects?
>>>It can be cleanly isolated and interfaced with cocoon via
>>>some sort of adapter.
>>>This only confirms the value and need for blocks.
>>Then why don't you stay and help us sort out the blocks.
>You are INcorrectly assuming that I have left Cocoon.
>There are a lot of people with strong opinions on the blocks.
>I do not feel like I can be of value at this stage.
>Nevertheless I am monitoring the progress and looking forward to a final design decision
and an API.
>>There is no better place to ensure clean separation and
>>adaptability than here on cocoon-dev. We would actually
>>help clean up the xmlforms code, but going your way you
>>are on your own.
>I like Bertrand's idea of going Chaperon or jfor's way.

Preliminary note : I'm a happy JFor and Chaperon user.

IMO, Chaperon and JFor may be considered differently than XMLForm : one 
of the main evolutions of Cocoon is going through is growing from a 
publication framework to a web application framework. Flow script and 
XMLForm are two important parts in this evolution. My opinion is that 
XMLForm is more "core" to Cocoon than Chaperon and JFor.

>I see no reason why discussion should not be carried on cocoon-dev.
>In fact it already started... ;)
>I feel bad that it started somewhat sour, but I'm sure we'll work it out.

Ok, so please explain us what are the problems that were raised in 
private emails.


Sylvain Wallez                                  Anyware Technologies 
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }

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