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From "Geoff Howard" <>
Subject RE: sample web-app too complex?
Date Fri, 07 Feb 2003 01:33:12 GMT
I've just gone back to full time work (with a bad commute) so I'm
a little out of the loop on the discussions of the last week, but
wanted to add this:

> In this sense i simply want to point people to the essentials,
> giving them some KISS cookbook guidance, some first
> sense of achievement  and then give them the freedom to dive
> as deep into the game as they want. And only then we point
> them to "expanding your knowledge pages", such like
> which is a significant source of knowledge and getting through
> it will certainly help understanding cocoon in more depths.
> I want to keep the beginners away from CreateMinimalWebapp,
> because stripping down cocoon to its essentials is a technical
> process, but users tend to start with "application use cases"
> Please i'm not talking about ALL users, i'm talking about the
> exceptional users, who don't know anything about cocoon ...

As the author of that work in progress, I agree with you - it wasn't
meant for the typical beginner.  It was my log of the process it
took me to do a minimal build on 2.0.4 release, and I thought it
more useful to core/docs contributors to get a handle on where
things stood, and maybe make some changes to make getting to that
point easier. (Actually, the other part of the plan was to add the
binary war file so people could skip the instructions)

The problem that I saw needing to be addressed was after one has
learned cocoon and wants to begin developing an app to be deployed,
how do I go about trimming out all the stuff that isn't necessary.
Part of my security thinking involves stripping out services etc. that
aren't necessary.  If I install Apache httpd, I know I don't want to
run perl cgi's so I want that out of there so there is no potential
for vulnerability on an area I'm not monitoring closely.

I don't really remember why I sent the link in response to this thread,
except that I have heard newcomers express concern that cocoon.war is
so big.  Having a minimal build that is 5meg might help alleviate that
concern  - whether they know how to create it or would actually use it
that small wasn't the issue.

So, feel completely free to use or not use any portion of that as you
see fit - I am very impressed with the effort that's been going on
with the Competency Center and have no ego tied up in whether you found
that useful.  Hope to get back to a point where I can contribute more soon.


> regards, Hussayn
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > On Monday 03 February 2003 23:50, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
> >
> >>I would like to distinguish between
> >>"creating a webapp with minimal cocoon"
> >>and
> >>"creating a webapp with minimal functionality"
> >>
> >>
> >>would not be what a beginner wants to start with, before they
> >>get something to see. In my eyes this may be "step 2". But to
> >>be honest here, i never thought of stripping down cocoon
> >>to its basics. i just keep it as is and use what i need.
> >>One day i may find out, that a very particular peace of cocoon
> >>would be exactly what i need, but unfortunately i dropped it
> >>by stripping down cocoon earlier. Now i can try to find out,
> >>what i have to put back into my webapp to get the new stuff
> >>up and running hmm... not convinced.
> >
> >
> > I tend to both agree and disagree at the same time... ;o)
> >
> > Thinking back to Apache Webserver... When I first opened the
> httpd.conf (which
> > in those days was spread out over three files to make matters
> worse), I was
> > overwhelmed with the sheer amount of settings, and closed it
> (them) quickly.
> >
> > I realized I needed to dig through that to get my server up and
> running (the
> > defaults were also less perfect than today), and every line was
> scrutinized;
> > "Do I need to change this?", "What does this mean?" and a lot
> "Wow, can I do
> > that?"
> >
> > So, although it scared the "mud-like-substance" out of me, it
> also re-inforced
> > the learning speed.
> >
> > Looking at that (because I was too involved with the inception
> of sitemaps,
> > generators, aggregation and all the rest, so I know what it
> means in Cocoon,
> > and is not a "neutral" first user) I think I can give this feedback;
> >
> > Any configuration file, be it httpd.conf or sitemaps, should be
> organized in a
> > couple of sections, and ordered in some kind of priority order,
> where lesser
> > used features, or very advanced features are placed far from the top.
> > If the first "section" covers the "essentials", and clearly
> indicates that "If
> > you are setting up Cocoon the first time, you probably don't need to go
> > beyond this point..." it would be great.
> >
> >
> > What I am trying to say; Complex new settings environments
> (such as sitemaps)
> > are intimidating at first (especially if your editor is not XML
> aware with
> > syntax highlighting), but it is easier to review and modify
> sample entries,
> > than trying to pick them up from a xdoc and "get it to work".
> > Also, the comments should be more descriptive, especially what
> the Cocoon
> > specific terms means, so if I am reasonably bright, I don't
> need much more
> > documentation.
> >
> > Niclas
> >
> >
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> >
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
> Neuenhöfer Allee 125
> 50935 Köln
> Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
> Fax:     +49-221-56011-20
> E-Mail:
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