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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: What Cocoon is really doing wrong [was: CVS repository changes... (and what's left to do)]
Date Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:10:21 GMT
Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> I just want to keep on the tradition of writing mails
> that explain what cocoon is doing wrong :(
> We really should avoid "action fast" when this has a great impact
> on all developers and all users of cocoon, like renaming cvs repositories
> etc. Reverting things like these is more than a pita.

Reverting things like these are piece of cake, Carstern. In fact, it's 
just a matter or changing back the access grantes to the module. (the 
fact that it's now a symlink rather than a real module shouldn't bother you)

> So, we really should come back to the usual open source handling
> of things: first a proposal, than a vote, than the action.

We are in the middle of a transition. This community voted to be a 
top-level project and the ASF agreed.

I understand that a transition is always painful, but things are done 
for good.

now, I agree with you that Pier should have done a proposal first, but 
knowing him, nothing he did can't be easily reversed. [he's a 'do first 
apologize later' type of guy... and I like that in a CVS-backedup 

> And not: making a proposal and during the proposal doing the
> action only because one committer that "great".

I can't parse this sentence, can you restate?

> All the other
> committers had even no chance to say their opinion. 

You are saying your opinion. I am listening to your opinion. Nothing 
that was done can't be reversed.

> You have to give other committers at least one day time, because
> we don't live all on the same site of the world, but I guess for
> such important isuess one week (as it is handled e.g. by the
> avalon group) is much better.

If we take a week for each vote, we'll be starting to act as a JSR 
working group and will take years to do something :)

I like the 'do first, revert if somebody complains' approach for small 

I like the proposal/lazy-consensus/act things for bigger things.

I agree with you that Pier should have followed the second approach this 

> Sorry Pier that this time it hits you, but I hope you feel better
> when you know that you are not the only one doing things in cocoon
> this way. Even I do it sometimes...but it really depends on the
> impact of the change. If the change can be simply reverted it might
> be seen as "ok".

Carsten, Pier did nothing that can't be reversed in 15 minutes, as he 
clearly stated.

> So as a personal consequence, I will stop my work on cocoon until 
> this is sorted out, because I'm feeling really unsure on how to 
> handle any committs and how it will go on.

What can we do to change this perception of yours?

> (The good thing about it is that it gives me some time to finish
> things in avalon).

This is good.

Stefano Mazzocchi                               <>
    Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate [William of Ockham]

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