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From Sylvain Wallez <sylvain.wal...@anyware-tech.com>
Subject Re: [RT] Using pipeline as sitemap components (long)
Date Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:35:03 GMT
cziegeler@s-und-n.de wrote:

> Sorry, if this mail is not properly formatted - I have to use a mail 
> frontend which
>
> absolutely sucks. But it seems that I'm stuck to it for the next week.
>

You're right, Carsten. This front-end definitely sucks. It sends html 
only and doesn't properly format it. Can't you use something else ?

> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
> > >You can totally confuse new cocoon users by telling them
> > >that the serializer does not have to be the xml serializer.
> > >Because they don't know the internal things of Cocoon which
> > >we know. And it's not obvious for them.
> > >
> >
> > I don't agree with the above : the first thing that a Cocoon user has to
> > know are the concepts of generator, transformer and serializer. And all
> > documents explaining these concepts explain the usage of SAX events (or
> > at least XML documents) to communicate between components and the fact
> > that the serializer translates SAX events to a byte stream.
> >
> > The concept of SAX-event pipeline is *the* fundamental concept of
> > Cocoon. A such, a user not knowing this concept will understand about
> > nothing to what Cocoon is and what it can do.
> >
> > But let's not argue about this, which isn't the real problem here.
>
> Ok ;) - you missunderstood me above because I didn't give a good and 
> clear explanation,
>
> but you're right that we should not argue about this...so...let's continue
>
>
> > >Let's be honest - do you know any framework etc. where you
> > >have to specify things which are not used to define this
> > >service? It's like implementing a method where you have to
> > >add some statement at the beginning and at the end and then
> > >later on they are ignored.
> >
> >
> >Mmmh... what about languages like Eiffel where each method can have
> >preconditions and postconditions (or the new "assert" in JDK 1.4) ?
> >Depending on the runtime environment, these blocks may or may not be 
> called.
>
> This is a little bit different, as you can write pre- and post-
>
> conditions in Eiffel but you don't have to. They're optional.
>

You're absolutely right. Damn, you got me also :-)

> > >And I think if we have a special syntax for calling a service
> > >it's nearly natural to have a special concept for defining
> > >the service as well.
> > >
> >
> > Yep. But once again, there is no new concept on the caller part. I admit
> > the syntax is somewhat stretched on the callee and that we may want a
> > particular syntax there, but certainly not on the caller part.
> Ok, that's exactly where we different opinions - I really tend to
>
> have a new syntax for the caller part as well - but if the overall
>
> consensus is, that we don't need it - I will not block it - but
>
> come up from time to time if users complain about it :)
>

No problem ;-)

> > So what if we introduce some new statements to define incomplete
> > pipelines to be used as pipeline services ? For example, a serialization
> > service could be defined using :
> >
> > <map:begin-service/>
> > <map:transform src="xdoc2fo.xsl"/>
> > <map:serialize type="fo2pdf"/>
> >
> > and a transformation service could be defined using :
> >
> > <map:begin-service/>
> > <map:transform src="foo.xsl"/>
> > <map:end-service/>
> >
> > That is <map:begin-service> replaces a <map:generator> that would be
> > ignored and has to be used for transformation or serialization services.
> > Similarily, <map:end-service> replaces a <map:serialize> that would
be
> > ignored and has to be used for generation or transformation services.
>
> Roughly yes! I think this is more intuitiv und understandable.
>

Good. Seems like we're about to reach a consensus.

> > >And one interesting thought: I could imagine that as soon
> > >as people can call a cocoon pipeline as a transformation
> > >service they will want to call a web services doing the same
> > >as well, so something like this comes into mind:
> > ><generate src="hallo.xml"/>
> > ><call-pipeline src="http://server/transformation"/>
> > ><serialize>
> >
> >
> > Why should a remote web service be called with a "call-pipeline", which
> > is a Cocoon concept ? Here again, we just want transformation. So this
> > can be written :
> >
> > <generate src="hallo.xml"/>
> > <transform type="soap" src="http://server/transformation"/>
> > <serialize/>
>
> :) - you got me...
>

;-)

Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Wallez                                  Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain           http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }



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