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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [important proposal] Cocoon as official Apache project
Date Fri, 01 Nov 2002 00:07:06 GMT
Steven Noels wrote:

> Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
>
> > But, *if* Cocoon becomes a top-level project, I'm not sure if it is also
> > a good thing to use cocoondev.org as the infrastructure. Now I see
> > two possible problems:
> >
> > a) What is hosted where? Is a mailing list hosted at apache or at
> >    cocoondev.org etc. Of course, this might not be a big thing, but
> >    it could confuse others.
> >    We could use cocoondev.org for example for show casing Cocoon
> >    and everything else is hosted at apache.
>
>
> First things first: cocoondev.org is simply a machine name, and it is
> currently listening to/hosting outerthought.org, forrest.cocoondev.org,
> and whatever name we could invent for it: the joy of DNS :-)
>
> So when I say cocoondev.org, I simply mean the machine (and its 
> primary name, which even could be changed if we really would like to).

I think that having a machine name detached from any domain name would 
help a lot both in communication and in perception of hardware 
neutrality. If Nagoya was called 'e4500.sunlabs.org' I think people 
would be less friendly to that, don't you think?

> Technically, I was thinking along these lines: we use cocoondev.org 
> (the machine) to host the new website and the developers community 
> website, which is being ProxyPassed [1] by daedalus or nagoya as
> cocoon.apache.org. That way, we leverage [2] the existing bandwidth
> availability and are able to use the lowered load on our (= the cocoon
> community) own machine for 'cool stuff'. The main website can make use
> of all dynamic features we would like to use, but with some clever
> expiry header setting we still can benefit of a reverse proxy, formed 
> by nagoya or daedalus.
>
> [1] http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/mod/mod_proxy.html#proxypass
> [2] buzzword bingo: 1 point :-)

I like that very much! In fact, I was planning to have a transparent 
proxy on top of any live cocoon system to reduce its load using 
proxy-friendly http headers.

>
> Lists for Cocoon-core development should stay at daedalus, as cvs for
> Cocoon-core should stay at icarus, but maybe, if someone builds a cool
> webmailarchive using Cocoon, we would be able to run that software on
> our own machine, without heavy lobbying of 'the powers that be' at
> infrastructure@apache.org.

I love it.

> Mind you that I really appreciate the hardware resources so kindly
> offered by Collab & Sun, but given the broad range of projects &
> services they have to support, and the inevitable burden that comes 
> with this, I believe everybody will be better off if we do our own 
> thing ("we" and "our" as in the Cocoon developers community), maybe 
> reverse proxied by nagoya for load & bandwidth purposes.

Amen.

> Along the Cocoon-core website and the possible developers community
> website (of which the Wiki could be part), there is still space to 
> host other Cocoon-related projects, part of the initial version behind
> cocoondev.org.

I see no problems with that.

Just understand that anything that is not contained into a *.apache.org 
domain will not be protected by the ASF legal umbrella. So, I like the 
parallel between mozilla.org and mozdev.org and I think it would make 
sanse to do so here, maybe using cocoondev.org as an incubator for 
cocoon-related stuff with greater visibility than simply throwing it 
into sourceforge and get lost.

>
> > b) Legal issues. To be honest, I don't know much about legal things,
> >    but I guess that it might make a difference if something is done
> >    on a server hosted by apache or on a server not hosted by apache.
>
>
> See Ovidiu's remark - those machines aren't necesserally owned by the
> ASF, I believe - and I'm pretty sure the bandwidth bills are paid by
> Collab, not by the ASF. The reason for investigating possible official
> endorsement by the ASF (dunnow how that would look like, but anyhow -
> maybe http://xml.apache.org/ack.html comes close ;-) is exactly to 
> make sure that eventual legal issues are covered (Dirk?).

I think the legal protection comes from the URL space not from the 
actual location of the machine or by who pays the bandwidth. Also note 
that php.apache.org redirects to www.php.net which is an official ASF 
project (even if many members are not that happy with the way PHP has 
managed to have special status, but this is a different story)

>
>
> > Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of cocoondev.org and as long
> > as Cocoon is not a top-level project, it's the only way.
> > But if we become a top-level project, I really like the idea to "fix
> > the current problems/shortcommings" here at Apache.
> >
> > Perhaps we can talk more about this at the gettogether.
>
>
> Yeah, but let's try to use the list so that non-attendees are being
> informed, too. We've just seen what happens if people don't understand
> each other because of non-explicit communication :-)

Or when people use domain names to refer to machines ;-P

When you told me privately that you wanted to have cocoondev.org under 
the Cocoon PMC and I said 'hmmm, maybe this is too much' and you pissed 
off, it was simply because I thought you wanted the Cocoon PMC to 
superview a non-ASF web site. See where all this non-explicitness came 
from? [not saying this is your fault, but I think that I didn't make 
anything implicit]

To avoid having to explicitly indicating this to *every* ASF individual 
we'll have to confront to about this (and there will be a lot, ASF 
members tend to be very conservative, expecially about infrastructural 
issues), I strongly suggest you give a name to that machine and start 
referring to it with that name instead of with the domain name it 
currently binds to.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi                               <stefano@apache.org>
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