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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: [ot] oscom berkeley
Date Sat, 05 Oct 2002 09:45:17 GMT
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> Has anyone attended Oscom in Berkeley? Comments, feelings?
> Yes, I have been there. OSCOM at Berkeley was great (well, I was one
> of the organizers;-)
> Zope/Plone ruled as the Python community would probably say. I guess at 
> least 80% of the people were there because of them.
> I very much believe in Cocoon, Java, XML, XSLT and Wyona (of course), 
> but I am getting tired of this "religion thing" and I think one can 
> learn and use a lot
> from "other" projects and there is a lot of collaboration possible if
> you really want to cross the bridge.
> Xopus and Bitflux make us certainly coming closer, because "we" all can 
> need them. But there are other topics which are going to help us to
> collaborate.
> Concerning Cocoon, I think it would be very important to advertise more
> that you can use Python (and PHP?) within XSP. I think one of the 
> reasons why the Apache Server project is so successfull is because it
> is kind of neutral and you can use it with all kind of languages.

Don't want to rain on the party, but I think the HTTPD project is one of 
the most religious on programming languages I've ever seen. And for a 
good reason, I might say.

When the Apache 2.0 project was starting, they made a votation to ask 
which programming language Apache 2.0 should be written with. There were 
all sorts of candidates (including C++, Java and Python) but they 
decided (by a bulgarian majority) to remain on C.

I would expect the same to happen in all big projects like Cocoon or 
Zope: what do you think it would be a reaction to make a formal votation 
on the Zope people on writing Zope 3 in Java?

The fact that you can use Apache with all kinds of languages is 
something you gain from its modularity not from some 'magic' political 
ability of the core group.

SoC all over again.

But can Cocoon be considered 'religious' about programming language support?

We support both PHP and Python. Thru BSF, we could support several tens 
of scripting languages (even Perl)... but the crude fact is: NOBODY CARES!

One thing is crossing the bridge to talk to others (something I was 
never afraid of doing... in fact, I keep installing new Zope releases to 
see if we can steal something from them :) one other thing is talking 
about 'working together to make one big open CMS'.

Which is totally stupid given the striking differences between the 
current open CMS solutions.

So, while Zope guys will never base their internal architecture on XML, 
Cocoon will never abandon it. While Zope will envy out pipeline model, 
they have too much community inertia.

So, IMO, programming languages are simply an excuse: the differences are 
*much* deeper. Even a project like OpenCMS, which is java based, works 
as a servlet and so on, it's as far from Wyona as you could think.

Do you really think that working together will increase our potentials? 
You deeply underestimate the energy it takes to merge two different 
communities into one: it's almost impossible. While it's piece of cake 
to fragment one single community into more than one.

Don't get me wrong: talking together is a great thing. But the only 
thing I got from the first OSCOM was "we need to talk more together". 
Did we, at least, came to the point that we know *what* we should talk 
together about?

Stefano Mazzocchi                               <>

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