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From David Crossley <>
Subject Re: DTD v. WXS v. Schematron v. RelaxNG
Date Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:01:12 GMT
Colin Paul Adams wrote:
> I have just finished further revisions to the draft sitemap. I shall
> upload the new version to bugzilla as you read this.
> From the current todo.xml:
> [code] For 2.1: Fine-tune the draft Sitemap DTD -
> src/webapp/WEB-INF/entities/sitemap-v03.dtd  (see internal
> comments). Tweak the default sitemaps to ensure that they
> validate. Fine-tune the draft Sitemap WXS too -
> src/documentation/xdocs/drafts/sitemap-2.1-draft.xsd  (see internal
> comments). Anyone for Relax NG? 
> This seems all a bit contradictory to me. Why do we need more than one
> type of schema file?

They are both "draft", so the "todo" entry is to draw
attention to them and keep them maintained, until we
decide on something better. Unfortunately, both
schemata have been languishing for a long time.

We trust that the current spurt of activity will
provide sufficient momentum and go to the next stage
- actually doing validation of important configuration
files: sitemap.xmap, cocoon.xconf, and also xdocs.

> Can't we decide which format we want to use?
> I would vote for anything other than DTD (as it is
> impossible to
> validate all possible sitemaps with a DTD - ...

Yes, as we discussed a few days ago, this decision
is the next step. To help decide which technology, we
also need to consider how and when it will be used.
I presume that we are only talking about build-time
for now (on sitemap change time is a future issue).

Something that applies a schema via external reference
is probably key. 

I have experimented further with Relax NG today.
The sitemap-v04.dtd converted into RNG okay when using
DTDinst. There is a supplied Ant task for Jing which
i am currently trying to get happening with Cocoon
build.xml (having trouble finding the JingTask class).
As Jeff said in another thread, JARV is probably the
framework that is needed. Jing can work with that.

> my new version validates
> all existing sitemaps in the distribution, but will
> need changing if new tags are used).

This has been the fundamental problem. The old sitemap
DTD (sitemap-v02.dtd) validated all existing sitemaps
in the distribution at that time. Subsequently, changes
were made to the Java sitemap code but not reflected
in the DTD.

This is a symptom of something that really worries me.
It seems that there is not enough focus in Cocoon on
the powers of XML. If we ensured valid XML instances
then Java code could rely on that, and so be much more

As you said in another thread - let us get some basic
validation system in place as soon as possible. This
ensures that DTD (and sitemaps) are properly maintained.
Then we can grow up to use something better.

> I am somewhat puzzled by the use of namespaces in the sitemap. Both
> the sitemap namespace and the global namespace are used, and I cannot
> see why this should be (for instance, both parameter and redirect-to
> occur in both namespaces). Looking at the java code, I cannot see that
> the namespace is checked at all. In which case, why not just declare a
> default namespace on the sitemap element?

Please raise this issue in an email thread with its
own "Subject". Threads with multiple topics just get
lost in the massive volume.

> Anyway, I'm hope to carry on with this work, if I knew what direction
> it was supposed to go. 

Great, this is vitally important stuff.

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