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From "Ivelin Ivanov" <ive...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [important proposal] Cocoon as official Apache project
Date Fri, 01 Nov 2002 03:08:28 GMT

Where is cocoondev.org hosted? Kansas?

Ping from Austin, Texas is good: ~30ms.

What are the machines there? CPU, RAM, HDD, OS, etc.
Steven probably mentioned that on the cocoondev list already,
but I must have missed it.



Ivelin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <stefano@apache.org>
To: <cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org>
Cc: "Dirk-Willem van Gulik" <dirkx@covalent.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [important proposal] Cocoon as official Apache project


> Steven Noels wrote:
>
> > Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> >
> > > But, *if* Cocoon becomes a top-level project, I'm not sure if it is
also
> > > a good thing to use cocoondev.org as the infrastructure. Now I see
> > > two possible problems:
> > >
> > > a) What is hosted where? Is a mailing list hosted at apache or at
> > >    cocoondev.org etc. Of course, this might not be a big thing, but
> > >    it could confuse others.
> > >    We could use cocoondev.org for example for show casing Cocoon
> > >    and everything else is hosted at apache.
> >
> >
> > First things first: cocoondev.org is simply a machine name, and it is
> > currently listening to/hosting outerthought.org, forrest.cocoondev.org,
> > and whatever name we could invent for it: the joy of DNS :-)
> >
> > So when I say cocoondev.org, I simply mean the machine (and its
> > primary name, which even could be changed if we really would like to).
>
> I think that having a machine name detached from any domain name would
> help a lot both in communication and in perception of hardware
> neutrality. If Nagoya was called 'e4500.sunlabs.org' I think people
> would be less friendly to that, don't you think?
>
> > Technically, I was thinking along these lines: we use cocoondev.org
> > (the machine) to host the new website and the developers community
> > website, which is being ProxyPassed [1] by daedalus or nagoya as
> > cocoon.apache.org. That way, we leverage [2] the existing bandwidth
> > availability and are able to use the lowered load on our (= the cocoon
> > community) own machine for 'cool stuff'. The main website can make use
> > of all dynamic features we would like to use, but with some clever
> > expiry header setting we still can benefit of a reverse proxy, formed
> > by nagoya or daedalus.
> >
> > [1] http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/mod/mod_proxy.html#proxypass
> > [2] buzzword bingo: 1 point :-)
>
> I like that very much! In fact, I was planning to have a transparent
> proxy on top of any live cocoon system to reduce its load using
> proxy-friendly http headers.
>
> >
> > Lists for Cocoon-core development should stay at daedalus, as cvs for
> > Cocoon-core should stay at icarus, but maybe, if someone builds a cool
> > webmailarchive using Cocoon, we would be able to run that software on
> > our own machine, without heavy lobbying of 'the powers that be' at
> > infrastructure@apache.org.
>
> I love it.
>
> > Mind you that I really appreciate the hardware resources so kindly
> > offered by Collab & Sun, but given the broad range of projects &
> > services they have to support, and the inevitable burden that comes
> > with this, I believe everybody will be better off if we do our own
> > thing ("we" and "our" as in the Cocoon developers community), maybe
> > reverse proxied by nagoya for load & bandwidth purposes.
>
> Amen.
>
> > Along the Cocoon-core website and the possible developers community
> > website (of which the Wiki could be part), there is still space to
> > host other Cocoon-related projects, part of the initial version behind
> > cocoondev.org.
>
> I see no problems with that.
>
> Just understand that anything that is not contained into a *.apache.org
> domain will not be protected by the ASF legal umbrella. So, I like the
> parallel between mozilla.org and mozdev.org and I think it would make
> sanse to do so here, maybe using cocoondev.org as an incubator for
> cocoon-related stuff with greater visibility than simply throwing it
> into sourceforge and get lost.
>
> >
> > > b) Legal issues. To be honest, I don't know much about legal things,
> > >    but I guess that it might make a difference if something is done
> > >    on a server hosted by apache or on a server not hosted by apache.
> >
> >
> > See Ovidiu's remark - those machines aren't necesserally owned by the
> > ASF, I believe - and I'm pretty sure the bandwidth bills are paid by
> > Collab, not by the ASF. The reason for investigating possible official
> > endorsement by the ASF (dunnow how that would look like, but anyhow -
> > maybe http://xml.apache.org/ack.html comes close ;-) is exactly to
> > make sure that eventual legal issues are covered (Dirk?).
>
> I think the legal protection comes from the URL space not from the
> actual location of the machine or by who pays the bandwidth. Also note
> that php.apache.org redirects to www.php.net which is an official ASF
> project (even if many members are not that happy with the way PHP has
> managed to have special status, but this is a different story)
>
> >
> >
> > > Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of cocoondev.org and as
long
> > > as Cocoon is not a top-level project, it's the only way.
> > > But if we become a top-level project, I really like the idea to "fix
> > > the current problems/shortcommings" here at Apache.
> > >
> > > Perhaps we can talk more about this at the gettogether.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, but let's try to use the list so that non-attendees are being
> > informed, too. We've just seen what happens if people don't understand
> > each other because of non-explicit communication :-)
>
> Or when people use domain names to refer to machines ;-P
>
> When you told me privately that you wanted to have cocoondev.org under
> the Cocoon PMC and I said 'hmmm, maybe this is too much' and you pissed
> off, it was simply because I thought you wanted the Cocoon PMC to
> superview a non-ASF web site. See where all this non-explicitness came
> from? [not saying this is your fault, but I think that I didn't make
> anything implicit]
>
> To avoid having to explicitly indicating this to *every* ASF individual
> we'll have to confront to about this (and there will be a lot, ASF
> members tend to be very conservative, expecially about infrastructural
> issues), I strongly suggest you give a name to that machine and start
> referring to it with that name instead of with the domain name it
> currently binds to.
>
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi                               <stefano@apache.org>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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