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From Steven Noels <stev...@outerthought.org>
Subject Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modularize it . . .)
Date Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:31:16 GMT
Ulrich Mayring wrote:

> I'm sure there are good reasons, but from a marketing point of view this 
> is a show-stopper. It gives the impression that Cocoon is so hard to use 
> that even the devs themselves prefer lighter tools.

Showstopper is a strong word - use it cautiously IMO.

There's two problems here:

  * building the app
  * hosting the app

Building the app shouldn't be a problem, hence wikiLand 
(http://www.lolive.net/). From what I can see however, this is a one-man 
show and it is currently not up-to-speed with other Wiki implementations 
(not meaning to criticize the work of Olivier, just stating the facts 
as-is). JSPWiki has a small but thriving community and is more 
feature-advanced then wikiLand.

Now about hosting a Cocoon Wiki:

I and some others have been spending literally *hours* discussing the 
use of Java webapps on ASF-infrastructure for Forrest purposes on 
infrastructure@apache.org. Given the current state of Java VM's on 
FreeBSD and other issues, this is not an option on daedalus nor on 
icarus. Pier Fumagalli has offered us access to nagoya, but given my 
lack of experience with the Solaris platform, and the fact that Pier 
already is doing many thing for ASF, I went for my own server instead 
for various Cocoon/Forrest/documentation related experimentations.

I don't have the knowledge nor the time to host a true Sourceforge-like 
Cocoon development environment, where people can work on a shared 
Cocoon-based webapp, recycle Tomcat as needed, configure cocoon.xconf, 
etc, all in a secure and easy-to-maintain way. So I opted for the 
sysadmin-fascist approach: I am root on my own server, so I can install 
what I want and hopefully provide some useful tools to the community.

I use what is in my reach: a simple Linux server, fortunately well 
connected, with tools I can easily install and administer. JSPWiki seems 
such a tool to me. After my holidays I will investigate how I can 
republish the stored Wiki pages as xdoc XML *through* Cocoon using some 
decent skin, as a testcase to migrate Wiki content to xdocs in CVS. 
CocoDocoWiki should primarily be used by the documentation contributors, 
not necessarily by the community at large - there exist people in our 
community that are able and willing to graduate Wiki docs to real Cocoon 
documentation.

All this talk about logistics is boring me to death. There was the issue 
of not being able to persist [RT]s using some Wiki-like website. So Andy 
and I investigated whether we could host such a website. Then Leigh 
jumped up with loads of doco contribs. I consider this rapid advancement 
of content- and process-related matters much more important than the 
technology being used.

The marketing-savvy people will also fail to adopt Cocoon if there isn't 
any good documentation with it. So let's stop discussing the 'how', and 
focus on the 'what'.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org                      stevenn@apache.org


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