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From "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <>
Subject Re: [vote] cocoon-docs
Date Thu, 09 May 2002 16:24:10 GMT
From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <>

> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >
> > All this discussion on docs can be entertaining to some, but seems to
get us
> > nowhere.
> >
> > If someone says he's gonna do something, well, he's just _not_ doing it.
> Hmmm, entering Jon's mode won't help making your point come across, Ken.


> I hear your frustration, but I also hear other's and this is not, IMHO,
> the right attitude for things to come across.
> > You had some -1s for the creation of the list, and no discussion will
> > make mine go away;
> So? You don't have veto power, Ken. Nobody here does.
> True, we never had to count votes in this project, but we never tried to
> merge two different communities together and to breed their differences
> together. I was expecting cultural and social friction to happen (I
> warned Diana privately if she really wanted to take the job) but I
> didn't expect this community to see the process of establishing links in
> cultural differences as "entertaining to some, but lead us nowhere".

I have difficulty in understanding this discussion, like you did on the
Cocoon Exception handling stuff, remember?

> > I want to see facts, not a split of a community of doc
> > writers I still don't see in sight.
> > When I will see the need for the list, I will remove it, it's not
> > Till now, I have seen no big need for it, and no patches to need to keep
> > rolling.
> >
> > My 2 euros: Start discussion on the user list, where the public is,
> > prepending [DOCS] to every mail.
> > And let's get over this tedious stuff.
> Your arrogance is definately not helping any of your points come across,
> Ken.
> What you perceive as tedious, might be what we need to get out of the
> "impasse". You might not see a doc community in sight, because it takes
> time and energy to build one... and attitudes like yours, might exactly
> be what is making those people run away!

IMHO these big mails scare people away, but I may be wrong.

> There was no problem in making a new project for Forrest, even if it
> started as a technological foundation for a better documentation and
> infrastructure... why should it be a problem for a doc-oriented list
> used by those who care about cocoon documentation?

I never said it's a problem. The problem I see is fragmentation.

> If it doesn't work, too bad, but at least we tried.... but this list is
> focused on entirely different things and it's driven by psycological
> fuel which is not the proper one for the other community to prosper.

Ok, this makes sense, even if I don't understand what this other "fuel" is.
Maybe because no project on Apache I know of has a documentation list.

> This is why I believe that all the drawbacks of having another list are
> minor in respect to the frustration that builds up in the friction
> between the two psycological fuels.


> If you think about it, SoC is exactly that: let each one do its own job,
> surrounded by the people that talk the same language, perceive the same
> itches and like to share the scratching.

I always thought that users where the ones with the documentation itch,
hence my proposal for using that list.

> With all my experience as a respected community builder, I honestly have
> no idea if this cocoon-docs list is a good idea or not, but I *DO*
> *KNOW* that it's a step in the different direction, a direction to
> change the psycological substrate that might contain stuff that is
> extremely energetic for a development community, but might well be
> poison for other types of communities with different concerns.

This "different concerns" about users and document writers puzzeles me, and
honestly I don't quite get it.
XSP list was made for SOC, and it died, because that concern was *not*
indipendent from the users' one. They kept on asking in the users' list.
My feeling is that this is history repeating.

> Think about it.

Sure. Here is my -0.
I'm not going to be the one holding back all others.
It was my last attempt to make the docs effort start on the users' list and
_eventually_ migrate.

> And also remember that your -1 is not -inf

Of course. As our community guidelines say, it has to be backed by solid
While I think that my reasons remain valid, I have to admit that they do not
stand firmly against the community.

From: "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 9:15 PM
> When I will see the need for the list, I will remove it, it's not eternal.

Now I see the need.
They want it.
Let's see what happend, I'm curious.

As a last note, excuse me if I'm a bit harsh lately, but discussing things
on jakarta-general and similar lists is *really* frustrating.  :-S

Nicola Ken Barozzi         
            - verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

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